Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Footnotes

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  • Dinah Dunavan,

    I'm going to act naive here.

    I thought that in NZ we had a justice system that says a person is innocent until proven guilty. I thought that when the Privy Council quashed David Bain's first conviction and ordered a re-trial that meant we were back at square one, new trial, not guilty i.e. innocent under law.

    David Dougherty might have something to say about the wheels of justice and how easy it is for a jury to convict an innocent man.

    Dunedin • Since Jun 2008 • 186 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    David Dougherty might have something to say about the wheels of justice and how easy it is for a jury to convict an innocent man.

    David Dougherty's is an amazing story. But he was freed (and eventually compensated) because his lawyer (and Donna Chisholm) completely knocked out the prosecution evidence and showed there was no way in the world he was guilty. Bain's defence defence didn't do anything like that.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    It's not just the skillset, it's the blistering natural speed. She'll always beat her man on the outside.

    Heh. Several years of attending physical education class with Danielle when we were all younger, makes this doubly entertaining :)

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • complacenta,

    who buys Investigate magazine?


    obviously people like Sacha to make quite, quite sure that it's entire contents are 'bout a bunch of "fundies confirming their warped world-view"

    how sweetly smug can we possibly get now?

    Since Jun 2009 • 26 posts Report Reply

  • Eddie Clark,

    obviously people like Sacha to make quite, quite sure that it's entire contents are 'bout a bunch of "fundies confirming their warped world-view"

    how sweetly smug can we possibly get now?

    It published an article about how soy milk makes you gay. That, in itself, is enough to make me agree with Sacha.

    Somehow I developed a taste for men while utterly loathing soy milk...

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 273 posts Report Reply

  • Christiaan,

    One gets the feeling that Martin van Beynen would rather dispense with principle of reasonable doubt.

    London, UK • Since Dec 2006 • 121 posts Report Reply

  • Jan Farr,

    One gets the feeling that Martin van Beynen would rather dispense with principle of reasonable doubt.

    I got the feeling that he didn't feel the doubt was reasonable.

    Carterton • Since Apr 2008 • 395 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Nah, Martin van Beynen wouldnt: there have been 3 trials of David Bain - it's only the third that has found him not guilty.

    'Reasonable doubt' isnt as definite as the Scots legal system's 'Not Proven.'

    I dearly wish we had that verdict here in ANZ - and the Continental instituation of examining magistrate. (Yeah, I know: I've mentioned these things before...)

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    I'm with you Jan Farr - my comment was directed to Christaan the Londoner

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Christiaan,

    Martin van Beynen asks us, who did it, David or Robin? He doesn't seem to entertain the idea that an answer to that question is unattainable.

    London, UK • Since Dec 2006 • 121 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    O it's attainable alright Christiaan - but David Bain would need to supply the answer-

    and that was part of Martin's article-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    @Angus
    Fair enough, I understand it has significance but we didn't get a downgrade so can we move on already? I was kinda suggesting that as Prime Minister, it would be good if other areas of his government had __some__answers in Question time other than the usual avoidance ones ... after 9 long years etc hence my quoting Idiot Savant's post upthread.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • complacenta,

    soy milk makes you gay!


    that's wonderful!
    is there an online version anywhere you can link me to?


    any plans afoot to re-market the stuff as boymilk?

    Since Jun 2009 • 26 posts Report Reply

  • Jan Farr,

    I'm with you Jan Farr - my comment was directed to Christaan the Londoner

    :)

    Carterton • Since Apr 2008 • 395 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Martin van Beynen asks us, who did it, David or Robin? He doesn't seem to entertain the idea that an answer to that question is unattainable.

    The fact it had to be one of them makes that an uncomfortable point of resolution.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    soy milk makes you gay!

    large daily intake might leave you feeling queer?

    Atlantis • Since Nov 2006 • 4414 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    The fact it had to be one of them makes that an uncomfortable point of resolution.

    The jury only had the option of an all or nothing verdict. The possibility that it could have been a combination was not considered.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3218 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Hilary, absolutely right(except it had been floated in at least 2 books on the case beforehand)....but I've looked at that scenario, and looked at the evidence, and, for me, it just doesnt work. It is the *physical evidences* and the p- o heck! People still interested really should read James McNeish's "A Mask Of Sanity" for a kickoff-

    this is *not* an Arthur Allan Thomas case (and certainly not a David Dougherty) nor a Scott Watson scenario.

    Patrick White liked ANZ only because we have these Gothic & riddled murders (to his mind.) It's all part of the 'dark landscape' and Vincent Ward-type scenarios - but

    human societies all over our world *will*produce similar dramas-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    James McNeish has a valid perspective, but he didn't sit through the evidence of this latest trial.

    I've been following the juggling-for-most-authoritative-position between him and David Colquhoun over Jack Lovelock. These things are not black and white. Only the person/people with the lived experience knows for sure.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3218 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    No problemo Hilary - as I posted - DB can tell all -but has chosen to remain silent.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Given the "Report" function seems unreliable, I'd like to note that a certain obsessive troll first manifesting as Lil P is apparently among us for the third time after being banned twice, and declaring her ambitions to keep doing so.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19719 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I feel like Tim Burton would have said that so much better.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19719 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Given the "Report" function seems unreliable,

    As I just heard on the box, out of calamity comes existence. :)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • ScottY,

    van Beynan isn't the only person who sat through the entire trial and heard all the evidence. There were also 12 jurors.

    I'm uncomfortable with the view I've often heard expressed (and which van Beynan's article does nothing to dispel) that they must have all been thick, or asleep at the wheel, or blind to the obvious. But all 12 of them?

    I'm not saying Bain didn't do it. he may well have. I actually haven't a clue, because I've not heard all the evidence - only the bits fed to me by the media. But to suggest it was obvious he was guilty as sin goes too far.

    Many journos think their job gives them a better instinct for the truth than the ordinary bloke/woman on the street. And for some maybe that's true. But judging by what passes as journalism in this country's print media, I'm not convinced that van Beynan's view is any more reliable that that of the 12 jurors.

    And as a last comment on the Bain case, I'm tired of the speculation. Only one person can ever know what happened - and maybe even he doesn't know any more. He's served 13 years behind bars, time he won't get back and time that he probably won't receive compensation for. No doubt some people would argue justice has been done.

    West • Since Feb 2009 • 794 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I'm uncomfortable with the view I've often heard expressed (and which van Beynan's article does nothing to dispel) that they must have all been thick, or asleep at the wheel, or blind to the obvious. But all 12 of them?

    At least one juror, it seems, was literally asleep during proceedings. Like I says, court reporters don't say these things lightly -- I can't really recall it before.

    And having heard another experienced court reporter say even stronger things off the record, it does seem to me that there were odd things going on with this jury.

    Further examples: one juror passed a note to his wife to say not to let go of their tickets for Stomp because it'd all be done and dusted by the Friday evening. Another said something similar to a worker at the coffee bar across the road. It was a troubling jury.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22834 posts Report Reply

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