Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Conscious Party

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  • Simon Grigg,

    sorry simon, can you expand, I don't get you're point,
    are you saying that since these issues have been discussed for 5 years that the conversation should be dropped? I've seen the last 5 years as looking for a workable solution. Jenner was quite clear that he thought the ISPs were in the wrong here and saying it very clearly. its taken a while for people to get that concept clear in their heads.

    Sorry Rob....I'm not saying the argument should be dropped at all..quite the opposite. Jenner and many others are and have been essentially arguing the subscription model for many years and the argument seems to have changed little over the years beyond moving from what was once dismissed with vitriol by bodies representing the labels (both big and indie let me be clear) to having legs. It's only gained momentum because the old model was beyond resuscitation, and those arguing for it have had to come to terms with this fact.

    It's the same with DRM...essentially dead, it's just taking a long while to take it's last breath.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    jenner mentioned drm in his speech.
    he said dvd have quite substantial drm in them, no one complains about that. its pretty transparent for the use of a dvd though, put it in your dvd play, watch it, put it in your book case and forget it.
    he wasn't anti drm at all, but he did say that under the isp subscription model it would be irrelevant, people could file share all they wanted cos it will trickle down through their isp fees.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    he said dvd have quite substantial drm in them, no one complains about that. its pretty transparent for the use of a dvd though, put it in your dvd play, watch it, put it in your book case and forget it.
    he wasn't anti drm at all, but he did say that under the isp subscription model it would be irrelevant, people could file share all they wanted cos it will trickle down through their isp fees.

    Because the DVD does what you want it to do..it plays on a player, any player (with regional limits but that is a device to defeat parallel importing and is so weak most players now ignore it).

    DRM in music does exactly the opposite.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • Peter Darlington,

    he said dvd have quite substantial drm in them, no one complains about that.

    You what? DVD drm is horrible and has been universally panned since it came out. Not to mention the easy prevalence of breaking tools to get around it. I don't see much difference to the music situation tbh.

    Nelson • Since Nov 2006 • 949 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Because the DVD does what you want it to do..it plays on a player, any player (with regional limits but that is a device to defeat parallel importing and is so weak most players now ignore it).

    well not entirely true. some dvds won't play in my laptop, but they will play in my dvd player. clever that, cos in my laptop I can rip dvds and put em on the net for other people, but in my dvd player I can only play.

    DRM in music does exactly the opposite.

    aside from music code writers being obviously the less talented of the bunch (probably cos they're paid less) in that they can't seem to get it right, the concept and intent is the same.
    The only difference is we people to have an acceptance that copying movies is bad and that movie producers installing drm is fair enough, but we think that copying music is ok, (even though it is essentially the same thing) and while some grumpy old bulldogs can't think the concept through past drm=bad,

    If I buy a dvd and it doesn't play in my machine I take it back and lay a level of obnoxiousness on the retailer.
    I'd do the same if I bought a music file that didn't play, or a game that didn't install. I wouldn't use it as a justification for free for all, or piracy. The content providers have to be responsible for their product and as a consumer people should deal directly with them, demand satisfaction, not use it as as a lazy ass excuse to break the law.
    That said, its all null and void under an isp subscription scheme.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    I don't see much difference to the music situation tbh.

    a difference in magnitude of objection to it. note simon's response above to dvd drm compared to russells grumpy bulldog response to music drm.

    I couldn't even get a couple of dvds to mount in my laptop let alone use clever tools to get around their drm. but in a dvd play, perfecto.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    I couldn't even get a couple of dvds to mount in my laptop let alone use clever tools to get around their drm. but in a dvd play, perfecto.

    Maybe I'm lucky but I use the laptop for DVDs all the time without issue.

    But can I transfer an iTunes sourced MP3 from my IPod to my phone? No...

    The intent is quite different. One limits your play options the other does not.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Maybe I'm lucky but I use the laptop for DVDs all the time without issue.

    yeah I was surprised myself, hadn't really been playing a lot of dvds. 2 in the same week wouldn't mount. I was impressed.

    But can I transfer an iTunes sourced MP3 from my IPod to my phone? No...

    that's like saying my 8 track cartridges won't play in my cd player.
    not to say you shouldn't be able to play one in the other but we've had that format problem for as long as they've had formats.
    and its completely the same, my laptop has a screen and a dvd drive, it should be able to play a dvd, I might not want to take a tv screen and a dvd player with me. just like you might only want to take your phone on a walk with you.

    we view film piracy with a degree more seriousness, and accept its constrictions with less indignation for the moment, no reason we should but we do and it highlights the disproportionate response to music drm, other than music drm engineers are shit at their job.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    note other dvds do play fine in my laptop it was just a couple of cheekily protected ones.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    But can I transfer an iTunes sourced MP3 from my IPod to my phone? No...

    The iTunes tracks are AAC, which is the audio layer of MP4. It's a superior format in theory, but there are still compatibility issues.

    But the iTunes app will batch-covert your tracks to MP3s in a jiffy. If, that is, they're iTunes Plus with the no-DRM.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22849 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    that's like saying my 8 track cartridges won't play in my cd player.
    not to say you shouldn't be able to play one in the other but we've had that format problem for as long as they've had formats.
    and its completely the same,

    God, we're not going back here again..no! no!

    I'm just gonna say it's completely different. It's like saying an Mp3 won't play in an Mp3 player. They are only semi Mp3's if sold with DRM. Any fool can work out an 8 track won't work in a CD player but 99% of folks out there..the average consumer.. thinks that the MP3 they bought works in an MP3 player. And you piss them off if it doesn't. In that way DRM protected files are extraordinarily copyright owner unfriendly..they piss off the valued customer. As suing them does.

    If, that is, they're iTunes Plus with the no-DRM.

    Exactly

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    It's like saying an Mp3 won't play in an Mp3 player.

    apparently its not an mp3, it's an AAC.
    hey man, don't shoot the messenger :)
    if you don't like AAC and all its attached issues then use your spending power to buy the alternative. don't be supporting the people who sell products you don't like.
    you guys have got to get more aggressive as consumers. stop bitching about it on your blogs and demand satisfaction for your dollar from the companies you buy off directly.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • David Hamilton,

    Russell jumped in with his hobby horse of "no drm" Luddite comment, wasting valuable time which his highly educated guests could have used. (in a perfect world the no drm comment should mean "I want you to stop making bad drm that intrudes on my fair use, and get it right in a transparent and non invasive way", rather than "yes I do want to freely copy media files and you're spoiling my party"

    How is that more of a hobby horse than your "ideal drm" arguments? Are you willing to consider a solution of which DRM is not a part?

    other than music drm engineers are shit at their job.

    That's pretty harsh, I'm willing to bet they are good developers with a very hard, possibly unsolvable problem to solve. At the very least there are too many conflicting stakeholder requirements.

    God, we're not going back here again..no! no!

    /me shuts up :P

    Hamiltron • Since Nov 2006 • 111 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    you guys have got to get more aggressive as consumers. stop bitching about it on your blogs and demand satisfaction for your dollar from the companies you buy off directly.

    90% of the folks that click buy on their iTunes or Vodafone service don't have blogs, or care about the niceties of DRM, they just want a tune they can play anywhere.

    Those are the people that you don't want to piss off. And DRM does.

    /me shuts up :P

    ha, David, I'm back here already so please don't.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    PS Rob....just saw the NZ Musician thing online..nice

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3283 posts Report Reply

  • David Hamilton,

    On a related note, Metallica who were so abrasive about downloading in the past have a new strategy: Metallica Repents, Sort Of. The key seems to be building up a community around the band and the music, something the fans can share in and be a part of. No DRM in sight and even 320Kbps mp3s (anything less is silly in this day and age in my opinion).

    Hamiltron • Since Nov 2006 • 111 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Are you willing to consider a solution of which DRM is not a part?

    that would be this comment here up a few posts.

    That said, its all null and void under an isp subscription scheme.

    I'm not necessarily pro drm, or anti it. I understand what it's trying to achieve and I can't rightly object to that, which is why I took Russell to task for it, cos if he's so with the musicians then he's making comments and inflaming resentment that hurts those musicians.

    here's a pretty accurate link to a quite funny article on an verage musicians perspective on the joy of trying to keep doing what they do.
    please buy my music

    That's pretty harsh, I'm willing to bet they are good developers with a very hard, possibly unsolvable problem to solve. At the very least there are too many conflicting stakeholder requirements.

    Well they have seemed to have made matters worse, and dvd drm seems to work better, at least on the james bond disc and some other one I rented from alices. Its a tough gig I agree but that's what they're getting paid $150 for two 45 minute sets for, if they want good money they should work in the film industry :)

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    just saw the NZ Musician thing online..nice

    :) ssshhh
    you may not have noticed but my full name and gravatar of me as a teenager isn't on here. was a fun article though.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    On a related note, Metallica who were so abrasive about downloading in the past have a new strategy

    Thy don't really have a choice tough as they said in an interview, things are different now, and for a band releasing an album at the end of 2008 this is how it has to be, they're just trying to find their way through it.
    They mentioned they were pleased the album was only leaked 2 weeks before release date, meaning it could have been worse.
    its the sound of grinning resignation, and slight desperation.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    comment from the metallica article page :)

    screw you metallica. after victimizing your listeners through legislation who 'stole' your music, you want to provide unprotected files for a membership price? I can't wait to download this album for free. hypocrites.

    that whole suing your fans thing is misdirected.
    stealing from the buy my music article that's like saying the guy trying to shop lift a bottle of wine from your corner store is just a fan or what you stock :)
    that's ok though, you can make up for it buy selling some more crisps.
    just cos you like something doesn't mean you're in the right when you take it for free.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • David Hamilton,

    That's a really interesting article, thanks for posting it. As for the DRM engineers making it worse, the problem is bad design, and that stems back to the requirements of the "customer", which is in this case the parties wanting to maintain strict copyright control. Unfortunately their methods haven't gelled with consumers habits/expectations too well so far. I agree its made things worse, but probably not because of the engineers (why wont someone think of the engineers!).

    Hamiltron • Since Nov 2006 • 111 posts Report Reply

  • newtestleper,

    Paula Bennett of the Nats WAS there.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2008 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Tomorrowpeople,

    Who is Paula Bennett?

    lol

    I was there on the night (APRA Awards).

    Some observations:
    More people were commenting on what Helen was wearing that what she said.
    She still received a reasonable response - OK it's mostly a 'Labour mates' crowd but there was no obvious heckling and the like.
    A less rousing speech but I think she know she can't rawk it up like several years ago, it doesn't wash.
    I doubt the Labour supporters at the APRAs will be switching to blue at the elections and I guess it still does show that one particular political party seems more in tune with the 'music biz' than others, albeit in a naive way.

    Ruia Aperahama made a very good speech I though, not just about Maori music but about NZ in general - some thoughtful and inclusive comments from him and if more people had his attitude NZ might be a better place - embrace your cultural uniqueness but share it around with everyone else and vice versa.
    Pretty common sense stuff there.

    Martin Phillipps done good!
    He looks healthy and I was transported back to 1990 for a moment there.
    He still has that blue Charvel guitar.
    I'm related to him by marriage now (via a Phillipps with 'two ls and two ps) and like most people in NZ once auditioned for the Chills.
    MArtin found my demo tape down the back of his couch some years ago, after the auditions had long closed - lol
    I digress - I will have to put 'Soft Bomb' and 'Submarine Bells' onto the iPhone...

    Flip Grater - she sang great!. This is someone I had overlooked previously as being 'another chick singer/songwriter', however I was pleasantly surprised by her ability and voice - reminiscent of Karin Peris from the Innocence Mission. She's no Bic, Anika, Anna or any of that ilk thank goodness. Anyway, I liked her. I guess sometime some people can really surprise you when they don't sing their own stuff...

    Bachelorette was pretty cool - big synths pumped up loud sound GREAT! (as did the synth bass in Kapisi's live set). I saw Roger Shepherd looking quite happy too.
    It still surprises me how synths still get a bad rap in NZ - you have to be a 'proper' keyboard player with a Hammond or some Nu-wave rave act with a cheesy toy keyboard to be cool? Nah!

    Speaking of Kapisi - not sure what is going on there.
    Kinda like Concord Dawn going heavy metal with a band - odd.
    Does it work? Kind of?
    Is it another sign of the times where the hip-hop or dance outfits are getting back to 'real music' instead of laptops and CDJs?
    Hop so.
    Nice to see Teremoana up there.

    The APRA award itself..... was a bit weird? Usually it's a song that doesn't have to be a hit that wins - it's about the writing, not the success?
    I mean FFS - the OpShop song is hardly any different than any other shlock relationship fodder right?
    As for Greg Haver - the Welsh producer (who did the OpShop record) - big deal. So he produced the Manics once and now tells NZ bands how to make records? Are we still doing that crap? Why not put someone local like Simon Holloway in the chair.
    Midn you, Dianne Swann looked good in the video - they should have given the award to her for 'looking good'.

    Elemeno P? WTF? Again, hardly what I'd call an original song worthy of entry. Throwaway. Maybe if these guys were 18 it would be OK. But. They. Are. Adults. Justin Pilbrow writes jingles - go figure. The man is talented for sure but if you want to hear some good stuff dig out the single by Pause, released on Deepgrooves around '95. For the record, the guys are top chaps and good on them, Scooty Pearson is a great drummer and I've had the pleasure of playing in with him in several bands. However, there are many more 'songs' in NZ that shoudl have made the cut.
    It is surprising that the members of APRA voted for these finalists.

    'Bright Grey' would have been my pick. I was never a fan of teh 'Foundation much but that track is tops - works great and fantastic hook.
    Gotta lose the beards though guys - that goes for young Finn too.
    'So 2003'.

    Positive thought of the night - Arthur Baysting's speech was pretty short.

    I always find the APRAs more of an 'awards' night than the Tuis - the Tuis are now just a corporate sponsor fest.

    The Craps tables at the B… • Since Nov 2006 • 188 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Ruia Aperahama made a very good speech I though, not just about Maori music but about NZ in general - some thoughtful and inclusive comments from him and if more people had his attitude NZ might be a better place - embrace your cultural uniqueness but share it around with everyone else and vice versa.
    Pretty common sense stuff there.

    Yeah, actually I should've mentioned him in the original post (I plead hangover). I have a lot of respect for that guy -- and he's perhaps the most thrilling speaker of te reo I've ever heard.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22849 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Paula Bennett of the Nats WAS there.

    I which case it was a bit rude that no one namechecked her. Maybe they did and I missed it ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22849 posts Report Reply

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