Posts by Bart Janssen
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to Joanna,
I think that’s too simple an approach for New Zealand culture. People know rape is wrong
Yah know I'm not so sure. If what you are saying is we need to be clearer about what rape is then OK. But I actually think there are people who don't really think rape is wrong in the same way that there are people who think drunk driving is not wrong.
Like is said I'm thinking a bit out loud because I am also finding this discussion helpful and even if my thoughts are wrong then being told so is helping me at least :).
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to Lilith __,
this opens a whole biological-determinist can of worms that I think is a distraction from the issue of rape prevention
I agree and that's not the way I want the discussion to go either. More a case of rape being about the rapist and approaches that deal with that, be they cultural or specifically personal.
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to Jackie Clark,
there’s a supposition on your part that all rape is violent
Um yeah I think so. Even if you imagine the most gentle act of sex, if it is without consent it is a violation and a form of violence, isn't that true?
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to giovanni tiso,
And that behaviour is what, entirely genetic and not at all the product of culture?
If it was a product of culture it would vary more between different cultures and I don't think it varies much at all. I think there is evidence that it is possible to promote it culturally (eg college football teams) but that is different from trying to eliminate it.
I guess I am saying that there is a genetic component to this that can't be ignored. But having said that I need to emphasise that a genetic propensity towards violence does not mean an individual has to be violent.
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Below might feel like me being patronising, if so I apologise, it’s just me trying to sort ideas out and “thinking out loud”. Part of it is just the way I’ve been trained to think (not implying I think "better" but it's a particular bias in style of thought), part of it is probably ignorance of most rape research. And sorry long post is long.
I have issues with the idea of a “rape culture”. To me it suggests that we know of a culture where rape doesn’t exist, as far as I know that isn’t true and has never been true.
We can imagine different cultures and propose that such an imaginary culture might eliminate rape – but I find myself balking at most of those imaginations because I keep thinking “but what if that isn’t the real connection”.
I think that needs explaining because I’m not sure I’m making sense. So one of the popular ideas is that if we had a culture that didn’t view women as property then we wouldn’t have rape … usually followed up by long dissertations to support this idea. Which is all fine as an hypothesis but where is the experimental proof? What if rape isn’t anything to do with a view of women as property?
What I keep coming back to is that on the bell curve that is human behaviour there is a portion of humanity (yes they are real humans) who for some reason feel comfortable doing violence to other humans, including rape. It’s more complicated because there are probably different bell curves for different kinds of violence, perhaps especially so for rape. And no I’m not suggesting rape is normal human behaviour or genetically programmed or excusing it on the basis of they can’t help it.
It isn’t about a culture causing them to rape. It is about a culture that has failed to figure out how to stop them raping. That’s why I dislike the “rape culture” thing, it feels like explaining rape as part of the culture. Instead it’s part of the behaviour of a portion of humanity. When I think of it like that it seems to me the problem becomes one of figuring out how to apply (cultural) pressure on that group that might naturally be more inclined to rape in order to make them stop before they rape.
In very simple terms Megan’s observation of signs in Samoa that say “rape is wrong” feels like the right approach to me. It directly focusses on those people who may not naturally “get it”. It feels to me as that kind of approach is better than the indirect approaches which may or may not actually have a connection to why people rape.
That approach also focusses on the rapist not the victim.
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to Russell Brown,
Have witnesses said this to anyone but Marshall?
So it's possible there was no naked man? Really?
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to Emma Hart,
I think it hugely depends on how you go about it
I'm afraid it keeps bringing up images of lawyers offices for me ... so no, really really not sexy
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to Deborah,
From
where I think my partner was obliging me
to
If you want a double standard, justify it
Is an extremely unfair leap.
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to nzlemming,
I'd blame the nuns for global fucking warming if I could figure an angle
They probably destroy the ozone layer with all their flying around.
Interesting how after being all serious and emotional I get just plain silly.
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Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible…, in reply to Deborah,
I blame the nuns
Always a good starting point