Yellow Peril: The thing you can't stand on.
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Che and Emma: nice to know that at least someone got my point. Thanks for the words of support... I felt all Emo and misunderstood for a few moments there (particularly since I did study Blake at university, and have read (nearly) all of his works... sniff... sniff).
Juha: I can see the grin on your face as you write this -- and I know that you're just arguing for the sake of it -- but, heaven help me, I'll take the bait...
Juha Saarinen wrote:
...removing a historical emblem lessens its significance. Eventually, it gets written out of our immediate history - how many remember what the Canadian flag looked like before the Maple Leaf?
One is tempted to ask: "So what?". The old flag will just become part of history, like the Lion & the Unicorn, standing in the cinema for 'God Save the Queen', referring to Britain as "home", or any of our other DCRs (Daft Colonial Relics).
Juha Saarinen wrote:
As for a new flag somehow magically bringing forth thousand years of Maori history, I'm not so sure that will work.
As you well know, no-one is suggesting any such hypothesis. All that has been suggested is simply:
...if we are going to have a flag, then maybe we should have one that better represents the country. Or, at the very least, we should seriously consider the possibility.
Juha Saarinen wrote:
If it's a clean break with all things British we want... perhaps the goal [should be] the phasing out of English.
Ignoring the fact that you're obviously taking the piss by now, I would point out that we don't actually speak British English in this country any more. We have our own officially-recognized dialect, see:
http://www.ling.canterbury.ac.nz/research/project.shtml
And the point is that some people think that our flag should similarly be uniquely representative of the country.
Juha Saarinen wrote:
What's the problem by the way with keeping the Union Flag but adding for instance the United Tribes one on the other side?
No problem at all! Add it to the list of suggestions.
By the way, does anyone think that my suggestion of adopting a new flag in addition to the old one (as we did with our National Anthems) might be a compromise that more people could live with?
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yup. the last thing we need is more confused, misunderstood and hungry teens. in fact, it might be the latter that causes the former.
man up, you'll come right son.
re: flags. maybe this just isn't the time for this debate. it seems that events like flag or anthem changing happen in historical moments. the anthem changed as we woke up to british preference for closer markets (the 1970s), and apathy towards us.
but what's happened lately that makes us desire change?
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Um, as much as I hate to crash the party, but don't you think the flag debate was tedious enough the first time around. Notwithstanding my contributions above, we're wasting time discussing which bit of cloth we should hang from a stick. WGAF?
To bring discussion closer to one of the original points of the blog: I'm in Dunedin for the first time on research right now and I was initially perturbed at how white it is down here, (no disrespect to Dunedin, I actually love it here, but after 10 years in Auckwoodland the difference in ethnic minority visibility is quite drastic).
But the sight of Robbie Burns - the great white father figure down here I guess - dressed as Super Tino Rangatiratanga man (he had a tino flag cape and was carrying a huge tino flag on a staff). I felt most welcome, and the authorities in Dunedin deserve serious props for not raising the slightest fuss.
The Otago Daily Times was also refreshingly non-hysterical about it, - the online ed is pay per view, but the caption to the pic of ol Robbie said "Pure Poetry..." All the Waitangi Day articles were all good. Props to the reporter with the strange name of 'Staff Reporter'. I've got a clipping of the pic and if I come across a scanner soon I'll post it on the net somewhere - Tze Ming can you assist an Amish brotha with that?
Compare that with Auckland where the Harbour Bridge was a no go for tino, and the council did it's best to scuttle a tino flag and staff on Maungakiekie citing lack of resource consent. So, a bit of wood and cloth needs resource, but a huge stadium...
And, what was the role of Ngati Whatua in all this who already play a big role managing Maungakiekie and will regain more control over this wahi tapu through their Wai settlement? I couldn't find their position reported anywhere.
Auckland's not so bad, shame about the council and newspaper though. I think I'll subscribe to the ODT.
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Manakura said:
... don't you think the flag debate was tedious enough the first time around?
It's certainly not the most important topic in the world, so you may have a point!
Just to liven up the debate a little then...
Manakura said:
I was initially perturbed at how white it is down here...
I'm sure that you're accurately describing your emotions (and I know what you're trying to say), but I wonder how this differs from those people who feel 'perturbed' because they see Asian faces waiting in line at their local bank.
Try out the phrases:
I was initially perturbed at how Asian it is down here...
I was initially perturbed at how many Pacific Islanders there are down here...
You can see how some people might feel a little offended.
Go for it...
[Addendum: This is a serious question -- I had a similar experience when I came to Christchurch (although I would describe my reaction as surprised rather than perturbed). Why should different faces provoke this response? Why are some people perturbed by sameness, and others by differentness? And should we feel offended by other people's reactions (which presumably they can't help)?]
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merc,
Best quote ever from SI..."There were no Maori down here, too cold, no food." I had just read that the central Dunedin area supported round 284 Pa sites...
Best flip, meeting a 6th generation who had Chinese features and handled so well the usual Asian comments. I too am 6th generation but not from British, Scots, descendants, something people tend to forget down there. -
I'm merely taking things to their somewhat extreme and a little amusing conclusions. To me, if you substitute "flag" with "willie" in the pennant palaver, you'll get a bet far better idea what the waving around is actually about.
One positive side-effect of this thread is that I looked up the history of the flags where I come from - the Nordic countries. Yes, I used Wikipedia... but here goes:
Finland, where I was born - the flag came about after the independence from Russia. They held a competition in fact, without a Kevin Roberts in sight. Seems the design comes from... a yachting club flag. Hmm, maybe that could work for NZ too? With a nice Louis Vuitton or Prada bag in the corner?
Denmark: Dannebrogen fell out of the sky when the Danes were out and about in Estonia for a bit of burnin' rapin' lootin and a-shootin' (not sure if they had gunpowder at the time, but it rhymes) and got stuck in a tight corner. Oldest flag in the world, apparently.
Sweden: the Swedes basically copied Dannebrogen, but changed the colours. Seems the flag was first used in Finland, when the southwestern part was a Swedish Duchy.
Norway: now this an interesting one. Before cloth-waving became de rigueur, the Norsemen had all kinds of cool symbols like dragons, serpents, and ravens. Then they got SNAGGY with it, and started using Danish and Swedish flags, until the union with the latter country. They then used a flag similar in concept to the NZ one, with a "herring salad" mashup of the Swedish and Norwegian flags in the corner.
Most interesting however is the fact that the Sami have their own flag. They've been pushed towards the arctic by later migrants, and now live across the four countries in that region. Now they have their own officially recognised flag which probably isn't much comfort really.
And Lewis... of course if you remove something you, well, remove it. It goes away. The things attached to the object removed also disappear - some instantly, others fade slowly away. That's why the act of removal should be a conscious decision where the consequences are understood.
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This is a serious question -- I had a similar experience when I came to Christchurch (although I would describe my reaction as surprised rather than perturbed). Why should different faces provoke this response? Why are some people perturbed by sameness, and others by differentness? And should we feel offended by other people's reactions (which presumably they can't help)?
I have a theory that I wrote up a couple of years back after the London bombings. It's just culture shock. WRT to immigration, that (perfectly normal) discomfort over a changing environment only really turns into racism when it's affirmed and justified into an external problem - by informal community consensus or political candidates - and fault is transferred to the object of difference (that is, an emerging immigrant population).
I guess it's not cool to comment on the number of (insert ethnic minority here) because they've already been made the scapegoats before. Could be an unnecessary kneejerk reaction from the person that's offended, or racism on the part of the offender, having grown up in a place that foreigners were demonised. I'd imagine most westerners that comment on the whiteness of a town are simply commenting on the whiteness of a town. Those commenting on the brownness of a town could fall either way.
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Takes a while to get used to different people... when I started hitch-hiking around Europe, it felt odd to enter countries where people didn't look like you. I remember going on the Paris metro in the rush hour, looking over a sea of dark-haired heads thinking I'm really not in Scandyland any more.
Likewise, it was odd at first living in Singapore because people are rather Chinese, Malay and Indian looking there. It was fine after a while though, and you got used to being The Man from the Ethnic Minority. Then after a few years I went to Sydney and had the same experience in reverse so to speak. Couldn't get over how white people looked over there.
Guess it's a human nature kinda thing huh?
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And Lewis... of course if you remove something you, well, remove it. It goes away. The things attached to the object removed also disappear - some instantly, others fade slowly away. That's why the act of removal should be a conscious decision where the consequences are understood.
Well yes, but it's a truism to say if you remove something it's removed. I simply disagree that a consequence of change will be a loss of "history". I mean really, the 'things attached to the object' (the Union Flag) have already faded with time. Unless of course you consider New Zealand to still be a part of the British Empire...
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Dammit, outed as an agent for the British East India Company again. Bring back the Raj! Paint Google Maps pink!
In that the history becomes less visible in our every day lives, it is a loss of it. There's no denying that. That's why most people know so little about Maori history - it's not visible enough.
So, it's a question of letting things fade slowly as-is or speeding up the process really.
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Dammit, outed as an agent for the British East India Company again. Bring back the Raj! Paint Google Maps pink!
Now now, I didn't accuse you of that. My point is that a flag is meant to represent a nation; our current flag does not do that.
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Go for it...
I sorta take your point, but the its not the presence of Pakeha down south, its the relative absence (in comparison to say Akl, Welly, Melbourne, etc) of any other ethnic group which I found kinda weird. But I had me a mean agedashi in Stuart street today so all is forgiven...
Well yes, but it's a truism to say if you remove something it's removed. I simply disagree that a consequence of change will be a loss of "history". I mean really, the 'things attached to the object' (the Union Flag) have already faded with time. Unless of course you consider New Zealand to still be a part of the British Empire...
...yadda yadda yadda, what about Super Tino Rangatiratanga Man aka Robbie Burns? How cool is that shit? What does someone who actually lives in Dunedin think about their man flying the colours of Maori Sovereignty?
(Sorry, I picked your comment on a completely arbitrary basis Lewis, nothing personal)
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...what about Super Tino Rangatiratanga Man aka Robbie Burns? How cool is that shit?
I'm sure Burns himself would've loved it, being the mad St-Andrews waving Scottish republican he was (cf Scots Wha Hae, the Scottish National Party's official anthem. heh)
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