...what about Super Tino Rangatiratanga Man aka Robbie Burns? How cool is that shit?

I'm sure Burns himself would've loved it, being the mad St-Andrews waving Scottish republican he was (cf Scots Wha Hae, the Scottish National Party's official anthem. heh)

Go for it...

I sorta take your point, but the its not the presence of Pakeha down south, its the relative absence (in comparison to say Akl, Welly, Melbourne, etc) of any other ethnic group which I found kinda weird. But I had me a mean agedashi in Stuart street…

Dammit, outed as an agent for the British East India Company again. Bring back the Raj! Paint Google Maps pink!

Now now, I didn't accuse you of that. My point is that a flag is meant to represent a nation; our current flag does not do that.

In that the history becomes less visible in our every day lives, it is a loss of it. There's no denying that. That's why most people know so little about…

And Lewis... of course if you remove something you, well, remove it. It goes away. The things attached to the object removed also disappear – some instantly, others fade slowly away. That's why the act of removal should be a conscious decision where the consequences are understood.

Well yes, but…

One positive side-effect of this thread is that I looked up…

... don't you think the flag debate was tedious enough the first time around?

It's certainly not the most important topic in the world, so you may have a point!

Just to liven up the debate a little then...

Manakura said:

I was initially perturbed at how white…

To bring discussion closer to one of…

man up, you'll come right son.

re: flags. maybe this just isn't the time for this debate. it seems that events like flag or anthem changing…

Juha: I…

Well, logically speaking, removing a historical emblem lessens its significance.

No it doesn't. We removed the Lion and Unicorn from our coat of arms, but their historical significance hasn't been lessoned. Sure most NZers mightn't know the difference, but then that's an education issue. I mean really, are we going…

sigh...

Please no, William Blake was not.

I wasn't suggesting that they both produced illuminated books, or that Billy Bragg wanders around mumbling: "I see an innumerable company of the heavenly host crying: holy, holy, holy". I was just making a light-hearted comparison in terms of their ability to…

If it's…

The eagle never lost so much time as when it submitted to learn from the crow. William Blake.

William Blake was the Billy Bragg of the early 1800s ...

It pleases me to run a site where such observations are made.

NB: My apologies so my southern kith and kin, I am in the deep south for the first time and am still recovering from the other colours

I mean, the lack of other colours, almost as lamented as the lack of webforum edit function.

you'd think changing the flag would add yet another layer to the 1000 years or so of history already laid down here? I just hope Kevin Roberts has nothing to do with it... shudder.

Well I think the final design won't be what Kev wants somehow. You know, public consultation…

what little history there is in NZ

Umm, dude are you from Invercargill? There's at least 1000 years of history in Aotearoa, that's a pretty good effort. You've heard of the Maori peoples maybe?

Removing the Union Flag won't write it out of our history books

Ae, you'd think changing…

i prefer to think my ancestors were fighting against fascism in at least one war. the flag was just a something to rally round, so you didn't shoot the…

I don't like the idea of wiping out what little history there is in NZ.

This assertion annoys me. How does removing the Union Flag from our flag "wipe out" history exactly? Will children be banned from learning Early modern English history? Will Kipling clubs be hounded? Will Scottish Harriers…

I think _God Save the Queen_ has to be the most appalling anthem ever.

I so totally agree! Whenever I am embarrassed by the awfulness of 'God Defend New Zealand' I think of the imbecility of 'God Save The Queen' and cheer myself up no end...

But in the (somewhat…

Well, I think _God Save the Queen_ has to be the most appalling anthem ever.

Depends on the version... the one popularised in 1977 was rather catchy and the hacked lyrics of it are unforgettable.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Maple Leaf flag came about as a compromise and the…

It's illegal to fly it as a jack (except on Royal Navy ships).

Shouldn't be too surprised about England using their own flag, however.

Talking to them, the two British and four American women on staff,…

The New Zealand Flag is the symbol of the realm government and people of New Zealand. Its royal blue background is reminiscent of the blue sea and clear sky surrounding us. The stars of the Southern Cross emphasise this country's location in the South Pacific Ocean.

Courtesy of…

And the Union Jack representing the history of the other major immigrant people here, with whom a lasting Treaty was entered into by the Tangata Whenua; the flag, combining representations of how the two people who combined to form this country came here – the Maori under the…

I'm surprised that Waikato's use of red, yellow and black colours survived WW2.

Here is one that I've always enjoyed:

http://www.ausflag.com.au/debate/amr/amr37.html

On the similarity point there are a couple of great stories. Among the best is this one, from Jim Bolger's memoirs:

As part of the VE-Day celebrations in 1995 there was a large…

Canada is a poor example for New Zealand to follow... Did the indigenous people of Canada have much say in the look of the new flag?

Well I'm not suggesting that we follow Canada's example so slavishly that we consult only Canucks and Québécois! I'm suggesting just…

Did the indigenous people of Canada…

Should Hawai'i change its flag?

Which of Ireland or Italy should change?

Or Cote d'Ivoire or Ireland?

Should Suriname remove the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Vietnam|Vietnamese…

so scared of the 'man' that I forgot to paste in the link, shiver

why?

As recently as the 1950s many people born in NZ would refer
to themselves as 'British'. I think everyone can agree that
we've moved on…

Silly? Perhaps, but only as much as expending all this time and effort on a concept that is by definition designed to be inclusive for…

I came here to live in a democracy ruled by popular consent, which was my impression of how NZ is run. Or is the election just an elaborate charade and all the MPs are…

Did no-one think to yell back "except the "made in china" label".

Almost guarantee that it had one :)

Span, I agree with your sentiment that changing the flag should be part of a greater constitutional change. However, talking about…

Really well balanced – and the perfect flag for our immigrant nation

And with the blue representing our place in the Pacific Ocean and our affinity with Pacific neighbours like the Cook Islands and Fiji, who also have…

we've flown the hundertwasser for years (in a thoroughly non-jingoistic and straight-lines-are-the-devils-work sort of way....)

And fair enough, too! Apologies for my outrageous generalization. I'm still slightly shell-shocked after a recent road trip through Upstate New York, where I saw way too many flags...

We ain't looking…

Bit fiddly if you ask me, but definitely a contender. I think I prefer the James one though.

But dude, you totally missed out on the best design for a non-embarrassing flag for this country:

http://www.nzflag.com/designs_jeffyjames.cfm

Jeffy James's design rocks (in my opinion). If I were the sort of jingoistic nitwit who had a flag on my house, then this is the…