"The Terrorism Files"
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It's even possible that we have a mixture of all three cases among the 17:
a few activists engaged in a long-term plan of "deliberately arousing suspicion" for the purposes of getting (first) an obvious overreaction by the police, and (then) sympathetic media attention for their cause;some genuinely scary individuals not in on this plan, who were taking it at face value;
and some (possibly the majority) who didn't know what was going on and were absolutely freaking.
That's even more plausible.
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... with the last of the three groups possibly including some police informants. (Who would have also been "questioned" etc: if the police were to take the available evidence seriously, informants could be presumed to be at risk if not treated any differently from other suspects.)
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Some of them might have gone on the bush trip and come back rather shocked and with a mental note to avoid those nutters in future.
I'm sure for some of them at least, that's absolutely what happened. But the legal process should sort that out and hopefully they either end up on minor charges or have them dropped.
It's not unreasonable though to expect that they're going to get all tangled up in it, particularly at this stage. It may be that all the police know about some of them is that they turned up at one of the training camps and fired some rounds from a gun. That alone is probably enough for the arrest. If it comes out in the wash that they actually never did, or intended to do anything, then the legal system has at most scared and inconvenienced them.
Not at all nice obviously, but sometimes the police/legal system will do that as part of the process.
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I don't know what goes on inside gang headquarters, but if a gang started building up weapons and undergoing paramilitary training and talking about killing prominent people in a reasonably serious way, the police would ramp things up a lot.
Yes, they would- the point that I was trying to make was that in doing so they probably wouldn't have invoked the TSA, they would have used the general criminal law. It seems the defining difference is the fact that these were activists.
I was thinking about what our reaction would have been if this had happened 10 years ago when we were both in the thick of these very movements. You know we both would have been pretty sick for someone to take 'our' issues in this direction.
damned straight we would
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I've been wondering if that happened since it appears none of those activists with more tenuous links thought it might be a good idea to tell the Police what was going on.
I can sort of understand that, especially if the people concerned have difficult relations (and even legitimate grievances) with the police. You'd just shut up and back off, as the young guy in Christchurch seems to have done.
What annoys me much more is that it's clear that people who did know what was in the intercept and surveillance evidence have been publicly running the nothing-to-see-here line.
Even if the particular bugged conversation John Minto was referring to with his "nothing you wouldn't hear at a gun club" line was relatively innocuous, he knew that other conversations could not be construed that way. And he still chose to go into print with a misleading characterisation. He couldn't be expected to say anything to harm the activists' cases, but he chose to go out and actively mislead -- and attack Chris Trotter while he was at it. That was very shabby.
Meanwhile, it's just been on the news that the police will move on "other publications" that reveal suppressed evidence, which definitely puts the kibosh on me passing on anything I've been told (not, I should add, by anyone involved in the police or politics).
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NZ doesn't even have particularly strong civil institutions on paper, but practically it has worked so far, mainly because as a society we are so unaccustomed to armed violence that the boundaries are maintained by common sense.
We are also very small - it's only two degrees of separation here. We all know each other, and that tends to keep us in line too. So sure, our formal institutions may not be as strong as say, the formal US institutions, 'though that's arguable, but our informal institutions are very strong.
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Keen to hear Meurant's take on this now too actually...
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Yes peer pressure is a great informal institution for keeping the public in line for a small country like ours. Free speech has been almost banned in this country for decades for fear of being called sexist or racist by peers and the MSM. Now our pathological obsession with being "open minded" is coming back to bite us on the bum.
Remember there is a protest march Auckland town hall 10am Saturday against the Electoral Finance Bill. Hope to see you all there.
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Violent political acts bring with them two threats, I think:
1. The acts themselves.
2. The reaction in terms of loss of civil liberties.And, accordingly, the DomPost article worries me in two completely different ways.
1. Some of the people involved in the training camps appear to be f**king LOONS. What in god's name were they thinking?
2. The police in New Zealand, if they are indeed the leakers, appear to have little respect for due process and a fair trial. And, in the long run, we need to be offering fair trials even to nut jobs.
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From the excerpts of the bugs.
What about if we did a bombing campaign that blew up Waihopai spy base, power dams, gas facilities, TV stations and radios
On a personal level, this freaked me out a bit cos I work at a TV station. That it may be a terror target has always been there at the back of my mind, but this just adds a layer of real to it.
But it was this quote that really made me think:
I wanna leave this planet making sure that I've done a f...... huge amount of harm to this country."
See, if we compare these terrorists to the IRA, well, the IRA weren't doing what they because they wanted to harm Ireland.
I can't understand why anyone who lives in Aotearoa New Zealand would want to harm the place. Surely that's what an enemy of the country would do. It seems counterproductive to harm a place you're trying to make better.
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I was thinking about what our reaction would have been if this had happened 10 years ago when we were both in the thick of these very movements. You know we both would have been pretty sick for someone to take 'our' issues in this direction.
I've really appreciated your consistent perspective on this Kyle, as much as I've been disappointed that many others on the activist left haven't been able to say: "if you were even contemplating violence, you have damaged our ideals and you are no part of us".
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Perhaps you could do it elsewhere. Some of us are investing our time and brains in having a discussion about some important issues, and you're muddying the waters and wasting our time.
If you want to make stuff up, up to you, but this isn't really a 'creative fantasy thinking' blog
oh right, just seems like more waste of time net shit talk to me...
...maybe there should be a disclaimer stating you are serious cats, this are serious thread
get over yourself dude...
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115 pages of evidence was it?
We see maybe 2 pages?
And we have no idea of the age or character of the people who said these things.
If Tame Iti was talking of killing politicians, be worried. If 17 year old Joe Blow is saying it, tell her to grow up. When I was a boy I said things that I would be very very ashamed to have quoted back to me now. Angry young people say stupid stupid things.
Who leaked this stuff? Why did they do it? How did they select what to leak? I fear that we (NZ public) are being manipulated. I doubt that there is some dark conspiracy, but it is worrying never the less.
What interests and scares me is the appalling behaviour of the police. Here I am talking about *actions* not threats. None of what I have seen of the material justifies the blockading of a town.
W
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Free speech has been almost banned in this country for decades for fear of being called sexist or racist by peers and the MSM
What country do you live in? The sort of overt bigotry that goes in the letters page of the Herald or the rantings of some of the right-wing columnists wouldn't be tolerated in the established media of any other English speaking country.
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I.O. said
To claim that some of these bugged conversations could be taken to mean the bugee was thinking of running for Parliament is facetious.
Facetious yes and deliberately so. The snippets, drip-fed to us by the Dom. post, do not tell the full story and as has been said from day one we may never know the full extent of the police case. The effect of the publication will only prejudice public opinion and the reason for my, rather disingenuous interpretation was to illustrate my point.
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2. The police in New Zealand, if they are indeed the leakers, appear to have little respect for due process and a fair trial. And, in the long run, we need to be offering fair trials even to nut jobs.
I think there's a legitimate argument both ways on that, and Paul Norris had some interesting points to make this morning. This has become such a major public issue that there was a case for saying the evidence needed to be opened.
He pointed out that juries have shown themselves to be robust in such circumstances in the past.
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oh right, just seems like more waste of time net shit talk to me...
Feel free to close your browser at any time.
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When I was a boy I said things that I would be very very ashamed to have quoted back to me now. Angry young people say stupid stupid things.
Without picking on this particularly, this seems to be a common refrain.
Let's just re-iterate here that this is not just somebody saying angry things. This is a few people regularly saying angry things with others of a like-mind, and then training in military maneouvres with live rounds and Molotov cocktails.
There is a significant difference.
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Shane Jones talking to Mike Hosking on ZB today, per the Herald's semi-literate transcript:
Shane Jones: Yeah I think there's something more disturbing that I am hoping the media will turn its attention to. I rather suspect that a lot of the characters mixed up in this rubbish up in Tuhoe and various other parts are using the cloak of Maoriness to disguise and obscure criminality and soon as the cops round the buggers up and treat them as criminals the better ...
I think there are two issues here, Mike. Number one, the dos and don'ts of a successful operation. At the end of the day Commissioner Broad can give an account of all that, but at a deeper level us as MPs we got to continue to assure people that their safety and their security is of paramount importance.
Now if there are people on P, doing drugs, screaming around with guns breaking the law in terms of arms control then they should face the full force of it cause there is a lot of kaumata Tuhoe want to get on with life, solve the historical grievances, and they are being eclipsed by the self-appointed king of Tuhoe Tame Iti and a number of people who appear to me to be criminals as opposed to genuine dissenters.
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This sort of thing has been going on for decades to a certain extent. I was in protest movements in the 70s but got put off by their talk of violence and retribution against anyone they perceived to have some small advantage over them.
Are we really so politically naive to think that that this hasn't been going on much and it is new, or that no one in NZ/A would want to harm it - given that politicians for one have been harming this country for their own selfish political ends for decades. One example is the harm done to generations of kids by bringing them up in a society where politicians, greedy MSM and crackpot lobby groups after pippi foundation government handouts tells them constantly that they are "deprived" underprivileged" "underclass" etc until they end up believing the falsehood.
TV since the early 70s would have to be one of the worst culprits in the MSM category, so to a certain extent it is reaping what it has sewn. Instead it should be praising success and holding up great role models on TV every night.
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Yes, they would- the point that I was trying to make was that in doing so they probably wouldn't have invoked the TSA, they would have used the general criminal law. It seems the defining difference is the fact that these were activists.
Well the TSA does have components in it about the intent of the accused:
and if it is carried out for the purpose of advancing:
[and you need one of these]
a) an ideological cause;
b) a political cause; or
c) a religious cause.The TSA clearly was written for 'activists', and I use the word in a fairly broad sense. There needs to be some intent to cause change or advance a cause in the actions.
The gang that you're talking about probably wouldn't kill the PM or someone else for any of those three reasons, it'd probably be retribution or something else. That's not a terrorist really, any more than David Gray was one.
I'm still not arguing for the TSA, though this morning I thought that if it did get scrapped (wishful thinking there), that I'd want the stuff on financing/supporting terrorism still saw some sensible light of day somewhere else.
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RB - I still maintain Mintos line isn't too far off the mark.
Worth looking into sure, but still common BS talk in certain circles. Trotter was talking of actual naplam explosions which is a step or two on from what we're got here.The practise to shoot people line, is really stupid on many levels. If they were such great outdoorspersons they could stalk their prey. If they were true to the convictions they'ld not have an issue. Of course saying it in the 1st place is stupid.
It doesn't add up - are we putting this one down to loose cannon Lockett? -
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whats that whistling noise ???
...is that your black kettle boiling over ???
seriously though are you going to do anything more than just make harmless talk on line about it ???
but anyway I understand the majority of those arrested weren't maori or tuhoe...
...yet the media focus mostly on those who were involved in the ureweras and the majority of quotes seem like the most sensational race baiting ones by disgruntled Maori...
why is that ???
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Hi guys can we keep to the issue rather than getting at our selves?
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oh right, just seems like more waste of time net shit talk to me...
troll. stop it.
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