Speaker: Towards a realistic drug policy
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the former Seattle Police Chief, Norm Stamper.
Where do they get these names (let's go out and stamp on some norms!)??
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Because I'm a nerd, I tried to verify the the "all New Zealand mass murderers used cannabis" contention. I really couldn't.
Even if you exclude all the pre-cannabis-era mass murders, it doesn't stand up.
Claims about David Grey's cannabis use as a factor in his actions seem to to come solely from Tom Scott's Great Brain Robbery book -- no one else mentions it. And although I've met Tom since I wrote a scathing review of that book, and like him, my view that the book is staggeringly inaccurate is unchanged. That may be where JT's source's info came from, though.
And then you have the Schlaepfer Family massacre in 1992 in Paerata -- Brian Schlaepfer, 64, systematically killed his extended family, leaving only his nine year-old grand-daughter. Schlaepfer suffered from depression, but there's no suggestion he had ever used cannabis.
It's probably a safe bet that all NZ mass murderers had used alcohol, but that would be a correlation, not a cause.
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If we got rid of booze in supermarket shelves and 24-hour liquor stores, on the other hand, I doubt there would be a sudden proliferation of sly groggers and illegal stills.
I would beg to differ on that opinion, it would happen almost overnight. I, for one, would see to it.
;-)We've got data on that puppy. In the decades of extremely restrictive licensing laws in New Zealand, we became pretty much the world's champion home brewers. It was legal to brew your own beer (but not distill, iirc) and we did. Foreigners remarked on it.
That spirit was in play when the Mr Asia syndicate was shut down and heroin got really hard to get: enter homebake. And my guess is that we've made more methamphetamine from store-bought medicines than most countries have.
We are a practical, if not always wise, people.
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We are a practical, if not always wise, people.
Justine denies this, but I swear that once it came to buy a new fridge and she ventured, "I could make one".
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It's probably a safe bet that all NZ mass murderers had used alcohol, but that would be a correlation, not a cause.
I bet most of them were exposed to weetbix as children too!
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If we got rid of booze in supermarket shelves and 24-hour liquor stores, on the other hand, I doubt there would be a sudden proliferation of sly groggers and illegal stills.
I think you might get alcoholics buying up during opening hours. Or driving drunk to the wholesaler because they couldn't get booze at the dairy.
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Russell are you standing firm on smoking pot reduces your risk of cancer?
And what of the mental health risks inherant with cannabis, gonna acknowledge any of those?
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I bet most of them were exposed to weetbix as children too!
On the other hand, Stephen Anderson, the Raurimu murderer, was a heavy cannabis user, although it's hard to know what impact that had vs his abandonment of of his medication.
Schizophrenia sufferers often seem to choose to self-medicate with cannabis. Does anyone know why they would choose that, and whether it always ends badly?
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Here's one view:
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/176/4/345
Edit: Conclusion Substance misuse has been shown consistently to be a significant risk factor for violence and disturbed behaviour. Future research should try to evaluate possible pharmacological and psychosocial treatment approaches.
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And what of the mental health risks inherant with cannabis, gonna acknowledge any of those?
We're going to warn the kids about those for sure, given the high family risk. It may well be that alcohol is safer for them until they're in their thirties. But that's hardly the case for the general population, now, is it?
Here's one view:
Actually, that one puts cannabis below alcohol. Do you even read the stuff you link?
The comorbidity of schizophrenia and substance misuse has attracted considerable attention in recent years (Mueser et al, 1992a; Soyka et al, 1993; Smith & Hucker, 1994). A review of Mueser et al (1990) on 32 studies published so far showed lifetime prevalence estimates of: 12.3-50% for alcohol misuse and/or dependence; 12.5-35.8% for cannabis misuse; 11.3-31% for misuse/dependence of stimulants; 5.7-15.2% for hallucinogens; 3.5-11.3% for sedatives; and 2-9% for opioids.
Go opioids! Might have to rethink what we're planting in the vege garden this year.
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Through completely unscientific methods, based on dealing with 300-400 students a year.
Indeed, there are a number of obvious flaws in assuming from your observations that cannabis use damages students progress in university:
- The students will have different levels of compliance with authority, which is likely to be reflected both in their work and in their choice to use drugs.
- The staff may (subconsciously) regard certain students as useless stoners and give them less attention than more straight-edged kids
- Only students with "problem" drug use come to your attention. There is quite likely to be a large body of drug users that do not have problems and are not perceived as being drug users at all.(I could point to the fact that nearly all the PhDs I know use drugs, as an equally unscientific sample).
Since you are supporting the restriction of personal liberty, shouldn't that be based on rigorous science?
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cannawater on the supermarket shelf? marijuagum from the bottleshop? article in viva with the best cookie recipes?
I reckon marijuana honey might be worth researching. If it's half as good as manuka honey, you'd be quids in there.
As for the cannabis mass murder theme, its origins may be in the 1963 Bassett Road murders. Redmer Yska's excellent history of marijuana in this country, New Zealand Green, has this to say on the matter in Chapter 6:
"The presence of marijuana in Auckland's notorious Bassett Road machine-gun murders at the end of 1963 later resurrected all the Anslinger-era cautionary tales of reefer madness."
It goes on to describe how the murders came about, and how John Gilles shared a marijuana cigarette with a short order cook sometime around midnight. The chapter concludes:
"At the time it was a minor footnote to the sensational newspaper coverage, but within two years the Bassett Road reefer would assume murderous proportions."
And therein starts an urban legend. You'll probably find that all NZ mass murderers had eaten Marmite before their infamy. Trace elements of Bell Tea might have been discovered in their cupboards.
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Russell are you standing firm on smoking pot reduces your risk of cancer?
It wasn't my claim at all. Stephen pointed to a population study that that found that could be the case, but didn't find a strong association between lung cancer and cannabis smoking. Other studies seem to have agreed and disagreed, as Ross's notes say.
And what of the mental health risks inherant with cannabis, gonna acknowledge any of those?
I actually thought I did. It's worth noting that there's a reasonably well established genetic influence there: there are some people whose risk of psychosis is significantly increased by smoking cannabis.
I'm really not saying that cannabis is harmless. But I think it's worth being accurate as to the risks.
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There is some evidence that people with a genetic susceptibility to the
schizophrenia illnesses can precipitate them by using cannabis. And, if you are taking meds for any one of a number of mental illnesses, using cannabis as well doesnt do you any good at all...The sites Russell listed seem good to this layperson-
and, while I support decriminalisation of cannabis, I'd also support limiting purchase to 18 & over. And making sure the penalties for driving under its influence as harsh as they are for alcohol. (Actually, I'd like to see much harsher penalties for recidivist users of both intoxicants.)
But what really nterests me is *why* we have such a lousy drinking culture: some sane & probable reasons are given upthread. I'd add the widespread effects of wars (from Land to ongoing): there is a *lot* of pain in ANZ-
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I'd agree with Russell and Islander - I've been told the same thing by mental health professionals taking care of someone I knew.
(Edited to be more discreet).
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the widespread effects of wars (from Land to ongoing)
Yeah, you can see this on Courtenay Place every weekend.
Sharelle is vomiting in the gutter due to the effects of the NZ SAS deployment to Afghanistan. Meanwhile, Jarrod is taking on a bouncer as a result of the 1864 Maori victory at Gate Pa.
Obvious, really.
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I think the 6 o'clock swill crystalised the intergenerational abuse of that drug our society has today.
Unintended consequences of the prohibition cause. -
I think the 6 o'clock swill crystalised the intergenerational abuse of that drug our society has today.
Unintended consequences of the prohibition cause.Yes -- and our bingeing culture remains our biggest problem.
But also, some pioneer culture: Keith Stewart once related the documented booze shipment for a small C19th NZ settlement's party. It was staggeringly huge.
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Sorry, me again with the research evidence (from the same The Lancet source):
Cannabis use has been associated with increased risk of psychiatric disorders. A 15-year follow-up of 50,465 Swedish male conscripts reported that those who had tried cannabis by age 18 years were 2-4 times more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia than those who had not. Risk increased with the frequency of cannabis use and remained significant after statistical adjustment for a few confounding variables. Those who had used cannabis ten or more times by 18 years of age were 2·3 times more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia than those who had not. Zammit and colleagues reported a 27-year follow-up of the same cohort. These investigators also showed a dose–response relation between frequency of cannabis use in individuals aged 18 years and risk of schizophrenia during the follow-up, and this association persisted after controlling for the effects of other confounding factors. They estimated that 13% of schizophrenia cases could be averted if cannabis use was prevented. These findings have been supported by longitudinal studies in the Netherlands, Germany, and New Zealand all of which indicated that the association persisted after adjustment for confounders.
A meta-analysis of these longitudinal studies reported a pooled OR of 1·4 (95% CI 1·20–1·65) of psychotic symptoms or psychotic disorders in those who had ever used cannabis. Risk of psychotic symptoms or disorders was higher in regular users than in non-users (OR 2·09, 95% CI 1·54–2·84). Reverse causation was addressed in most of these studies by exclusion of cases reporting psychotic symptoms at baseline or by statistically adjusting for pre-existing psychotic symptoms. The common causal hypothesis was difficult to exclude because the association between cannabis use and psychosis was attenuated after statistical adjustment for potential confounders, and no study assessed all major confounders.
Evidence is conflicting on whether incidence of schizophrenia increases as cannabis use increases in young adults, as would be expected if the association was causal. An Australian study did not show clear evidence of increased psychosis incidence despite steep increases in cannabis use during the 1980s and 1990s. A similar study suggested that it was too early to see any increased incidence in England and Wales in the 1990s. A British and a Swiss study reported increases in the incidence of psychoses in recent birth cohorts but another British study failed to do so.
Non-consistent and weak associations have been reported between cannabis use and depression. Fergusson and Horwood, for example, found a dose–response relation between frequency of cannabis use in individuals aged 16 years and depressive disorder, but the association was not significant after adjusting for confounders. A meta-analysis of these studies reported an association between cannabis use and depressive disorders (OR 1·49, 95% CI 1·15–1·94). The investigators argued, however, that these studies had not controlled for confounders and had not convincingly excluded the possibility that depressed young people are more likely to use cannabis.
Several case–control studies have shown a relation between cannabis use and suicide in adolescents, but whether this is causal is unclear. For example, a New Zealand case–control study of serious suicide attempts resulting in hospitalisation found that 16% of the 302 people attempting suicide met criteria for cannabis dependence or abuse compared with 2% of the 1028 community controls. Controlling for social disadvantage, depression, and alcohol dependence substantially reduced, but did not eliminate, the association (OR 2).
The evidence from prospective studies is mixed. Fergusson and Horwood, for example, found a dose– response relation between frequency of cannabis use in individuals aged 16 years and a self-reported suicide attempt, but the association did not persist after controlling for confounders. Patton and colleagues reported that cannabis was associated with self-harmful behaviour in women but not in men, after controlling for depression and alcohol use. A meta-analysis reported that these studies were too heterogeneous to estimate risk, and few had excluded reverse causation or properly controlled for confounding.
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Go opioids! Might have to rethink what we're planting in the vege garden this year.
And not illegal to grow.Pretty also.
Phew onto page n.o 5,trouble with keeping up is doing stuff, wha'?, oh, as you were.;) -
Rich of O - heh!
But seriously - the aftermath of the Land Wars really established alcohol abuse among many tribes, and many many veterans of both WWs, were alcoholics. These things Did Not Do Families Any Good.
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I'd question the assumption that people generally drink (or take drugs) to take away the pain.
The official line from politicians and concerned citizens is often along the lines of "well you know it's people with depression/sad lives/living in poverty who drink to excess/do drugs in order to escape from their sad and crappy lives".
This perspective has always pissed me off to some extent - not because there are no people who fall into this category - I'm sure there are - but because it completely ignores the very large category of people who get high/get drunk/get wasted because it's fun - and who are quite capable of living normal and happy lives, making a decent contribution to society - as well as getting out of it once in a while. Not everyone who does drugs is a sad loser trying to blot out the pain.
Having said that, I do agree that the whole binge-drinking thing is Not A Good Thing. At all.
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Regardless the findings from the evidence cited above re mental health etc, I think most can agree our 35-year-long faith in our Misuse of Drugs Act to eliminate those harms has been seriously misplaced.
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...completely ignores the very large category of people who get high/get drunk/get wasted because it's fun...
Concur. And pretty much all research into drug use confirms the Number 1 reason for using legal and illegal drugs is because they're fun.
Pretty hard to legislate for that.
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I think the 6 o'clock swill crystalised the intergenerational abuse of that drug our society has today.
Unintended consequences of the prohibition cause.There are some pretty staggering graphs in Miles Fairburn's Ideal Society and Its Enemies (1989) tabulating alcohol statistics for New Zealand in the nineteenth century. The rates of abuse and alcohol-related crime and violence were way higher then than they are even now. Why do you think the prohibition movement here was so big and, initially, so successful?
No, what really "crystalised the intergenerational abuse" of alcohol then and now is one thing -- supply, and the unwillingness of a paid-off, sorry, successfully lobbied, government to regulate it properly.
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