Island Life: The World Is Full of Cu*ts
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BTW, can anyone suggest a breakfast cereal that *isn't* tainted by some wierd religious link? We've got Sanitarium, Hubbard, Quaker Oats and the inventions of the seriously odd John Harvey Kellogg.
Mind you, Kellogg believed that conventional sex was wrong, but yogurt enemas and violet wand insertion was just fine and dandy. If he'd been alive today, I'm sure he'd have been a regular on Fetlife.
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The Greenpeace Education Trust is a charity. Since I can't find any other entries in the register, I assume that the campaigning actions of Greenpeace are not granted charitable status.
I'm sure the IRD would be very interested to know that, since they allow people to claim rebates for donations to Greenpeace.
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RoO, Greenpeace aren't a charitable trust in order to dodge finacial examination by the general public.
If you're looking for a non-deist organisation that needs scutiny, you've just named it. (Is Gaia an official religion yet?)
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Oh, should point out that being accorded charity status doesn't just happen to trusts. Any legal person can be a charity, provided that they meet the appropriate requirements. The theatre with which I am involved is an incorporated society, and also a charity.
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I'm sure the IRD would be very interested to know that, since they allow people to claim rebates for donations to Greenpeace.
I'm just passing on what's in the public record, which presumably the IRD can read.
I imagine, being a multinational NGO, Greenpeace have it sussed. They may well pass the tax deductible donations into the educational trust and use other funding for the campaigning work.
And yes, I fully acknowledge that Greenpeace have issues, which is why I choose to send my dollars elsewhere. But I think they still have no more or less a right to tax-free status than the Catholic Church.
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Matthew Poole Writes
intricate intertwining of the spiritual and charitable aspects of the major churches
What complete and utter bollocks.
Any intertwining exists only in peoples minds it is not intricate. Churches exploit the centuries of deference that comes their way for no other good reason, and hide behind their "good works" aggressively and for as much as it is worth.Im with Sarah Silverman "Sell the Vatican"
Is your desire driven by your attitude toward organised religion?
No
Or because you think it would impact on the likes of Destiny Church?
Thats a side benefit
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Paul, could you provide some proof that it's a company? There's no Sanitarium Limited listed with the Companies Office, or indeed any company with Sanitarium in its name. The Sanitarium NZ website makes no references to the structure that's used.
Sanitarium is a trading name. The company is called The New Zealand Health Associtation Limited, which is in turn owned by The New Zealand Conference Association, a charitable trust.
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Cheers Scott. Talk about obscure naming!
andin, you actually proved something of my point. You dismiss out-of-hand as "in peoples minds" any suggestion that there's any link between donations through churches to their charitable activities and the spiritual activities of the churches. Which says that, actually, you don't understand it at all. I never said it was a tangible intertwining, I just said it was complicated. And it is, whether you like it or not.
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But I don't think we can take a naive consequentialist approach to the state's treatment of religion --- again, consider if Buddhism were `more beneficial' than Islam; would it be right to help Buddhism more? I rather think not.
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But I don't think we can take a naive consequentialist approach to the state's treatment of religion --- again, consider if Buddhism were `more beneficial' than Islam; would it be right to help Buddhism more? I rather think not.
That would be why the state does nothing at all to benefit one religion over another. It merely sets the boundaries for defining "religion" and then offers assistance equally to any body meeting the appropriate criteria. Indeed, any organisation that can present a case that it's advancing "the public good" can become a charity provided that it's in existence for the purpose of profiting individuals. That's a pretty broad brush. The notion of a poets' collective, suggested somewhat facetiously above, would almost certainly qualify for charity status at the rules currently stand.
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Which says that, actually, you don't understand it at all. I never said it was a tangible intertwining, I just said it was complicated.
You said intricate, make up your mind.
But it is a tangible intertwining cause it goes on in a persons mind which is tangible. It will be complicated, as it is often incredibly difficult to fathom the reasons why anyone does anything.Separate spiritual activites and charitable activites by any western church is a crock, they are all to the same end futhering their rotten agenda.
But if you want to find accommodation in you mind by separating them out and saying 'hey look churches do good dont knock 'em.'
You are a fool. -
But I don't think we can take a naive consequentialist approach to the state's treatment of religion --- again, consider if Buddhism were `more beneficial' than Islam; would it be right to help Buddhism more? I rather think not.
Again, I'm not sure why the state has to make value judgements on the relative worth of various charities. I know my charity wouldn't come out very well in comparison to a hospice. The relative value of the charities is made by the givers, not the government.
But it is a tangible intertwining cause it goes on in a persons mind which is tangible.
tangible: capable of being touched; discernible by the touch; material or substantial.
Churches exploit the centuries of deference that comes their way for no other good reason, and hide behind their "good works" aggressively and for as much as it is worth.
I'm not part of any religion, but that's crap. Lots of people involved with religion do good work simply for that purpose. If they didn't, us atheists would be needing to spend a lot more time and money providing foodbanks, drug treatment facilities, halfway houses etc.
A little more recognition for that work, wouldn't go astray.
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provided that it's in existence for the purpose of profiting individuals.
That would be "provided that it's not in existence for the purpose of profiting individuals."
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Where's Martin Luther when ya need him...?
time to renail those 95 theses on the church door... or were they faeces (on the much overlooked Cistern Chapel floor) ??Meanwhile in Italy crucifixes are being removed from classrooms - another rubicon crossed...
re the Telecom Sphincter logo (or is it merely a "fizzer"?) - does anyone know how much they paid for this ? and which napkin scribbler (er, Creative) was paid for it ?
...money for old rope, eh? -
Thanks for the Luther link Ian. Although I'd never want to try it for myself, I've always harboured a mild curiosity about the Diet of Worms.
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re the Telecom Sphincter logo (or is it merely a "fizzer"?) - does anyone know how much they paid for this ?
Multi million dollar campaign to show the thing. Mike Mizrahi (guy who lit up the Town Hall) did a show for their rebranding. They wont say how much for the log o but the last one was $140,000.00 Haha, that was a decade ago.
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I'm not part of any religion, but that's crap. Lots of people involved with religion do good work simply for that purpose.
Excuse me if I dont take your word for that.
If they didn't, us atheists would be needing to spend a lot more time and money providing foodbanks, drug treatment facilities, halfway houses etc.
Because they exist secular organisations like governments do not do as much they should. Social welfare should receive the largest cut of tax payer funding along with education and medical facilities. We should be caring for each other much much more that we do. It shouldnt be left to volunteer's, social work should be a respected career with good remuneration for anyone who wants to do it. Social work professionals, teachers and doctors would be at the top of our society not lawyers accountants and fucking politicians and business fuck heads.
We should have stopped wars by now and be a good long way towards solving poverty. As far as I'm concerned we should be spending a lot more than we presently do.A little more recognition for that work, wouldn't go astray.
Yeah right they dont get enough recognition.
FFS think about it.
And dont even think about bringing up Mother Teresa. -
Andin, it might add some weight to your (angry) arguement if you get to some specifics.
There are definately short comings in all charities, and criticism is valueble to improve them.
You might want to look at the Professional bodies that work for the conditions and remuneration of their members.
Doctors are expert at questioning foriegn qualifications as a means of excluding people from their profession in NZ (unless your British).Mother Teresa exists in two paradigms, hers as sacrifice and service, the other being the Indian Caste system and resulting conversions.
Recently she has been criticised for only tending to the dying and not improving the lives of the living. Which I haven't heard said about any other hospice.You seriously don't see any good being done by the Sallys, Methodist Mission, and St Vinnys?
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Because they exist secular organisations like governments do not do as much they should. Social welfare should receive the largest cut of tax payer funding along with education and medical facilities. We should be caring for each other much much more that we do. It shouldnt be left to volunteer's, social work should be a respected career with good remuneration for anyone who wants to do it. Social work professionals, teachers and doctors would be at the top of our society not lawyers accountants and fucking politicians and business fuck heads.
We should have stopped wars by now and be a good long way towards solving poverty.That's all good. But until you've finished fixing those things, how about we don't take a whole heap of money away from the organisations that are doing the work at the coal face.
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You seriously don't see any good being done by the Sallys, Methodist Mission, and St Vinnys?
That's all good. But until you've finished fixing those things, how about we don't take a whole heap of money away from the organisations that are doing the work at the coal face.
Whatever help or good work is done by these organisations is in my mind completely undone by the tainted help they offer.
That is just my opinion and I know I am in the minority.
If there is a "coal face" of poverty, one of the reasons it exist is because of the influence religions have had on human affairs through the centuries.And it continues to hinder tho it will be around because of our physical evolutionary history, the way our brain works.
Maybe we need a whole new way of tackling these problems and isnt it about time we got on and found those and put them into practice.
But then I become bi-polar and say to myself "Yeah right that's gonna happen" -
andin, would you be happy to pay all the additional tax that would be required for the state to pick up the slack?
Disturbingly, you may not be in much of a minority with your views. Bashing churches is popular, and becoming more so, and a lot of people are unwilling to apply any real analysis to the organisations beyond pointing to their historical faults and current material wealth. If you haven't noticed, many of the major churches advocate for the voiceless in our societies - the s59 repeal, welfare reform, justice reform, etc. They actually are forces for secular good, assisted by their organisation and close ties between denominations. Not that any of that appears to matter to more-than-a-few people, you included, who will happily bag them for things (they mostly didn't do, in this country) in their past without the slightest willingness to commend the good that they do now.
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Whatever help or good work is done by these organisations is in my mind completely undone by the tainted help they offer.
Andin: I'm not always particularly impressed by the public statements of the Women's Refuge, but taking my ideological blinkers off for a moment I wouldn't dismiss the practical help they give to abused women and children as "tainted."
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I fell asleep twice reading this thread. I enjoyed it all the same.
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"not promoting the introduction of new taxes whenever possible could in some ways be a good thing, unless you have designs on being...
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Mr Slack, what has happened to you? Have you been on the receiving end of a bolt of lightning or a holy hand grenade? No communications from you for a while, we are worried.
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