Well, it is damn good to have you back!

Yes, and the world really is still full of cunts. :)

@davidslack, since you mention it.

Mr Slack, what has happened to you? Have you been on the receiving end of a bolt of lightning or a holy hand grenade? No communications from you for a while, we are worried.

Sorry. It's been a crappy year. Injury, illness, too many commitments, people not doing what you…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maz9ddxEQnM

Whatever help or good work is done by these organisations is in my mind completely undone by the tainted help they offer.

Andin: I'm not always particularly impressed by the public statements of the Women's Refuge, but taking my ideological blinkers off for a moment I wouldn't dismiss the practical…

Disturbingly, you may not be in much of a minority with your views. Bashing churches is popular, and becoming more so, and a lot of people are…

You seriously don't see any good being done by the Sallys, Methodist Mission, and St Vinnys?

That's all good. But until you've finished fixing those things, how about we don't take a whole heap of money away from the organisations that are doing the work at the coal face.

Whatever…

I'm not part of any religion, but that's crap. Lots of people involved with religion do good work simply for that purpose.

Excuse me if I dont take your word for that.

If they didn't, us atheists would be needing to spend a lot more time and money providing foodbanks,…

Meanwhile in Italy crucifixes are being removed from classrooms – another rubicon crossed...

re the Telecom Sphincter logo (or is it…

provided that it's in existence for the purpose of profiting individuals.

That would be "provided that it's not in existence for the purpose of profiting individuals."

But I don't think we can take a naive consequentialist approach to the state's treatment of religion --- again, consider if Buddhism were `more beneficial' than Islam; would it be right to help Buddhism more? I rather think not.

Again, I'm not sure why the state has to make value…

Which says that, actually, you don't understand it at all. I never said it was a tangible intertwining, I just said it was complicated.

You said intricate, make up your mind.
But it is a tangible intertwining cause it goes on in a persons mind which is tangible. It will…

But I don't think we can take a naive consequentialist approach to the state's treatment of religion --- again, consider if Buddhism were `more beneficial' than Islam; would it be right to help Buddhism more? I rather think not.

That would be why the state does nothing at all to…

andin, you actually proved something of my point. You dismiss out-of-hand as "in peoples minds" any suggestion that there's any link between donations through churches to their charitable activities and the spiritual activities of the churches. Which says that, actually, you don't understand it…

Paul, could you provide some proof that it's a company? There's no Sanitarium Limited listed with the Companies Office, or indeed any company with Sanitarium in its name. The Sanitarium NZ website makes no references to the structure that's used.

Sanitarium is a trading name. The company is called The…

intricate intertwining of the spiritual and charitable aspects of the major churches

What complete and utter bollocks.
Any intertwining exists only in peoples minds it is not intricate. Churches exploit the centuries of deference that comes their way for no other good reason, and hide behind their…

I'm sure the IRD would be very interested to know that, since they allow people to claim rebates for donations to Greenpeace.

I'm just passing on what's in the public record, which presumably the IRD can read.

I imagine, being a multinational NGO, Greenpeace have it sussed. They may well…

If you're looking for a non-deist organisation that needs scutiny, you've just named it. (Is Gaia an official religion yet?)

The Greenpeace Education Trust is a charity. Since I can't find any other entries in the register, I assume that the campaigning actions of Greenpeace are not granted charitable status.

I'm sure the IRD would be very interested to know that, since they allow people to claim rebates for donations…

Mind you, Kellogg believed that conventional sex was wrong, but yogurt enemas and violet wand insertion was just fine…

Yes. To the tune of $27k/year per trust. Multiple trusts with identical trustees will get the spidey-senses of IRD investigators going, too, so it's not a particularly easy restriction to get around.

I thought the tax was based on the giver, not the destination. So you can give away $27K…

I think my point stands that organisations that…

Because in fact I don't think religion is a Good Thing

I don't think the law makes such value judgements. Nor should it. The salvation army does good work, but hasn't always had a great public record on 'the gays'. Does that make them not a charity and liable for…

Or maybe I am just feeling a little bitter after paying out $102 in excise fees and GST, to get access to a copy of a UK-published book I contributed a…

Yes. To the tune of $27k/year per trust. Multiple trusts with identical trustees will get the spidey-senses of IRD investigators going, too, so it's not a particularly easy restriction to get around.

I thought the tax was based on the giver, not the destination. So you can give away $27K…

Who are you to ask us to move on? Discussion…

I assume he found it impolitic to convert while he was still Prime Minister.

One might think Papist apostasy was the least of his problems. :)

Addressing your points, I didn't mean that a trading trust is automatically tax-exempt, but that if the trust is charitable, and trades, then Sanitarium NZ could have a fully tax-exempt status.

Regarding donations, that…

Anyone know why Tony Blair converted to Catholicism?

I'm always a little surprised when Anglicans do this (I can't tell the difference myself) and the converts seem to fit into two very different camps.

One of the most traditional ways the Catholic church acquires converts: his wife is Catholic by…

Certainly not, Matthew, and I hope I made it quite clear that I was riding a train of thought and not slapping around a straw person with your name on it.

Yes, I realised that but probably wasn't quite clear enough that I was arguing with you, not against you.…

Are you sure about that? The above-cited Listener article seems to indicate (though it's not really explicit) that that is not the case (page 2.) I also remember a TV piece about the same time.

I am absolutely certain that being owned by a church does not exempt a company…

I'm always a little surprised when Anglicans do this (I can't tell the difference myself) and the converts seem to fit into two very different camps.

So even if Sanitarium Australia doesn't have to pay federal income or profit taxes as a wholly-owned religious company, that does not apply to NZ.

Are you sure about that? The above-cited Listener article seems to indicate (though it's not really explicit) that that is not the case (page 2.)…

If I may, we had a State Religion and it still maintains a de facto status in New Zealand.

Certainly, in the sense that our head of state has to meet a three centuries old religious qualification imposed by the British Parliament (and bears the title Supreme Governor of the…

To add to Matthews point. Much of the Church land holdings were gifted to the Church and as such have no resale value, as they would need to be returned to…

Craig, I'd be one of the last to advocate for a state religion, and precisely for the reasons that you give.

Certainly not, Matthew, and I hope I made it quite clear that I was riding a train of thought and not slapping around a straw person with your name…

What bothers him is that – despite undiminishing poverty and growing secularisation – many churches and religious groups sit on a largely undisclosed stash of property holdings, investment funds and trading revenues as part of a valuable portfolio made all the more valuable by their tax-exempt status as charitable organisations.…

I would put money on there being a significant decrease in the charitable activities of religiously-affiliated organisations due to the resultant impact on donations.

Interesting point. Even in this supposed agnostic/atheist hotbed, though, the tone of discussion strikes me as being much more thoughtful and nuanced than one would expect…

Sallys & secular social workers are doing Gods/good work, for little finacial benefit & often at the expense of their own…

What bothers him is that – despite undiminishing poverty and growing secularisation – many churches and religious groups sit on a largely undisclosed stash of property holdings, investment funds and trading revenues as part of a valuable portfolio made all the more valuable…

Is society now sufficiently secular as to satisfy all the hordes who wish to see religion disappear?

Um... we live in a country that doesn't have a state religion, and while I know you're not going there, I don't think its somehow anti-religious to say that a separation…

I think it would go a long way towards removing the potential for abuse in the system – c.f. the cornflakes.

Except that, as I just explained, the cornflakes thing doesn't work here unless Sanitarium NZ is operating it business as something other than a company – which, given the…

the same ballpark as why I oppose state-funding of political parties.

Good point. I'd forgotten the church role as aggregator of individual goodwill in the same way as political parties aggregate political intent.

So, social services run by churches, sure. Preaching, not so much.

I agree.

I sure wasn't thinking of subsidised cornflakes when I said "good use".

Mmmm, subsidised cornflakes. (But, yeah, of course you weren't. I should perhaps stop quoting as a jumping-off point and only do so to reply directly;…

Secondly, because I genuinely think that promoting your point of view about the world is not in and of itself a charitable exercise deserving of implicit government support just because this view takes the form of belief in a higher being/power/spirituality/what-have-you.

Which is, oddly enough, in the same ballpark as…

Is your desire driven by your attitude toward organised religion? Or because you think it would impact on the likes of Destiny Church?

It's because a) I think it would go a long way towards removing the potential for abuse in the system – c.f. the cornflakes. Of course, the…

So, social services run by churches, sure. Preaching,…

I did not know that.

Now I do.

Not to say they don't put it to good use.

And not to say that anyone else doesn't also put their income to good use. Face it; in this day and age it's institutionalised robbery.

If night-shift supermarket workers on $12 an hour can pay income tax then so can…

I've been struck by the community and healthy environment I see in the couple of schools I've had contact with, quite different from my memory too.

Yeah, I must admit it didn't turn out to be all that bad. I mean, I was staggered when my brother drank holy water…

Some churches have, as I understand it, property portfolios worth hundreds of millions of dollars in Auckland alone.

I believe the missionaries were quite fond of land. What with all those delicious untaxed capital gains year on year, I imagine the leveraged income and the rents would be quite sustaining.…

But the key is to find a place that best fits for your kid.

How much tax revenue do we all think the Crown is actually missing out on from mainstream religions due to their charitable status?

They take in donations (lost GST maybe?) and use it to pay staff, keep buildings and do other stuff??

I think you'd be suprised. They use it…

Joe, your arguement to exclude Catholic Schools from funding through the integration programme could easily include Kura and anyone else outside of your mold.
Why not celebrate diversity?

With respect, that's not my argument.

Please consider, being involved in the raising of a special needs kid kind of places you…

They take in donations (lost GST maybe?) and use it to pay staff, keep buildings and do other stuff?? The staff pay income tax and presumably the…

Is the thrust here, Brian shud pay tax on his gifts, which due to there size amount to income?
So SteelBalls and all gambling should be counted by the tax man & Lotto & little timmies $50 at Xmas from Nanna?

How about, outside of a domestic relationship, putting the hard word…

Why not celebrate diversity?

So SteelBalls and all gambling should be counted by the tax man & Lotto & little timmies $50 at Xmas from Nanna?

All I'm saying is that any potential fudging of the division between church and state can be – and has been – taken advantage of, by both parties.

I guess I'm just a little confused as to how removing the advancement of religion as a charitable purpose fudges the division…

Groups promoting systems of thought that don't invoke deities, like the National Party, Greenpeace or the Wellington Anarchist Collective don't get charitable status. But religions do. And their apologists argue that removing that status is an attack on freedom…

While some degree of reform as to what constitutes a charitable activity may well be necessary, in practice government regulation can lead to a form of collusion between church and state.

I'm pretty sure there's a clear distinction between offering tax exemptions to those parts of organised religion which do…

How will we know whether our organisation has a “charitable purpose”?

In order for a purpose to be charitable, it must —

• fall within one of the four charitable purposes set out in section 5(1) of the Charities Act and

*…

I think you're overcomplicating the issue. I say cancel every tax exemption currently extended to religious organisations, and make them reapply on the basis the portion of their income that goes into supporting their charity activities. Same as any old corporate body

That seems fair.

how many charities that do the work of alleviating poverty have no religious ties?

There are quite a few Oxfam, Red Cross more here:
http://www.hunch.com/charities/toplists/no-religious-affiliation/103823/
Its not a list only focused on poverty alleviation.

To me the work that religious organisations is mainly focussed on human problems it a product…

The argument is not that organisations which are religious should be ineligible for charitable status, but rather that organisations should not be considered charitable purely because they are religious.

I mean, I don't particularly care if religion has good effects on…

The simple fact is, the major churches do an enormous amount of work in their communities. Whether or not you think organised religion is a good thing, it is impossible to argue that there is nothing good that comes from what the churches do.

I think I've been pretty clear…

Who are you to declare that, just because it offends your agnostic/atheistic sensibilities, attending to the spiritual needs of people is of less value than attending to their need for education and exercise?

Poets attend to my spiritual needs, and yet the state insists that they pay their taxes. Go…

The simple fact is, the major churches do an enormous…

I fail to see why that is any less worthy of charitable status than a sports club or cultural entity.

It's more that, as the situation stands, anyone can set up an organisation whose income is tax-exempt by declaring it's religious. With sports clubs and cultural entities, there are quantifiable…

I fail to see why that is any less worthy of charitable status than a sports club or cultural entity. Are we so overrun with such heinous/overly rich religions in NZ that we need to suddenly tax their income? I fail to see any widespread problem requiring a fix.

Because…

As with any entity to entity gifting – eg Trust to individual, individual to individual, company to individiual.

Also, note that trusts in themselves are liable for income tax as with any other entity.

Although there's something about exempt gifting to the trust's beneficiaries, isn't there?

Yes. To the tune of $27k/year per trust. Multiple trusts with identical trustees will get the spidey-senses of IRD investigators going, too, so it's not a particularly easy restriction to get around.

Also, using trusts as tax-avoidance mechanisms is technically illegal

Although there's something about exempt gifting to the trust's beneficiaries, isn't there?

Like most wealthier kiwis, you can guarantee that the Tamakis have a tidy family trust or trusts that receive dividends from Proton and income from their church. Or they need a better accountant.

Oh, sure. But that's not something uniquely available to Pope Brian in his role as a cleric.…

My understanding, and what I believe was the case that Matthew set out earlier, is that no-one (save the Governor-General?) is exempt from tax on personal income?

That certainly meshes with my understanding, and that particular understanding is actually formally educated rather than just gleaned from too much time spent…

It has never been before our House of Representatives, it has never been law.

Never been in our statute law? Balls. I quote from section 5 of the Charities Act 2005: __charitable purpose includes every charitable purpose, whether it relates to the relief of poverty, the advancement of education or…

(And the…

There really is no correlation between a charitable purpose such as relieving poverty and that of the practice and promotion of a particular religious opinion. The unavoidable truth is that Tamaki and many others are coining it because of an outdated notion of what constitutes charitable purpose.

Yes, that, precisely.

And you would like to take the on the challenge of drafting the legislation to close the loophole?

Oh yes; oh yes, oh yes, oh yes.

The classification of charitable purpose (religion, education, relief of poverty and general good – I think you got the last one wrong Matthew: culture…

And you would like to take the on the challenge of drafting the legislation to close the loophole? You would, I assume, make it applicable to all classes of charity rather than just religious ones? Where would, say, Dilworth fit into the picture?

I'd say those rules should be generally…

I don't know how they rock the vote in the home country these days, but if my parish priest tried it on in any direction he'd get told to pull his damn head in in "familiar" terms that would distress Brian The Bish mightily.

Millions of communists voted for the…

Some things were bad and are getting better, valid criticism can be positive and create a better future.

What succession planning does Brian have in place, who will replace him…

I still maintain that labelling any income churches receive as a charitable donation no matter what it's used for is dodgy, though.

And you would like to take the on the challenge of drafting the legislation to close the loophole? You would, I assume, make it applicable to all classes…

The Pope used to tell Italians whom to vote. Does that count?

I don't know how they rock the vote in the home country these days, but if my parish priest tried it on in any direction he'd get told to pull his damn head in in "familiar" terms that…

I can also go to church on a Sunday without being exhorted to patronise diocese-owned businesses, or else.

The Pope used to tell Italians whom to vote for. Does that count?

Why wouldn't it be? Clerics are employees, and subject to PAYE just like any other employee. Churches have to pay ACC levies, too. Heck, they even have to buy insurance.
Not having to pay income tax on their own income doesn't mean that churches are entitled to any other particular…

I can also go to church on a Sunday without being exhorted to patronise diocese-owned businesses, or else.

You're clearly hanging out with the wrong crowd, Craig :P

At the least, the money used to pay the clergy should be subject to income tax, it if isn't currently.

Why wouldn't it be? Clerics are employees, and subject to PAYE just like any other employee. Churches have to pay ACC levies, too. Heck, they even have to buy insurance.…

I know it's distinctly unfashionable on PAS to not bag organised religion at every turn, but there's a saying involving babies and bath-water that springs to mind when people start agitating to remove the tax exemption on churches because they see the likes of Scientology and Pope Brian.

I have…

Were he hanging over them the stick of a visit from "the boys" would you be so quick to dismiss the Proton/Destiny link as akin to BNZ Visa and GlobalPlus?

I'd also note that I've not been required to swear a person oath of fealty to the CEO of my…

Fundamentally what is the difference between Destiny & Proton as opposed to Global Plus/AA/Airpoints as a means of cornering a segment of the market?

Well, for one thing, "user rewards" (for want of a better term) aren't coupled with the threat of eternal damnation if you don't buy from the approved…

But, honestly, the fact that religious groups get away from tax on the presumption that all religious activity is charitable is the real issue that needs to be addressed. Pity no-one will touch it.

When I was in Melbourne, the Victorian state government had just caved to the Catholic Church…

Yes, cult means worship/religion in Italian so by parentage I think probably in French as well. It's a word used in several official denominations – a priest is a minister of the cult, for instance.
I think you can quite safely put it down to the translation being done by…

Joe, yip it is for some, for others St Francis is a guiding light.

Thanks for the link J.T. In fairness to St. Francis, there are a hell of a lot of critters that appear to blatantly ignore his teachings.

I know it's distinctly unfashionable on PAS to not bag organised religion at every turn, but there's a saying involving babies and bath-water that springs to mind when people start agitating to remove the tax exemption on churches because they see the likes of Scientology and Pope Brian.

It's unfortunately…

Russell, sure Brian is fleecing the flock & his scripture reading is a crock.

Fundamentally what is the difference between Destiny & Proton as opposed to Global Plus/AA/Airpoints as a means of cornering a segment of the…

Uh, yeah, that sign is pretty obviously referring to the Cult of St Nazaire.

No it's not.

The gifts for Brian are gifts after all. It's the contracted tithings and there inforcement, along with the imposed excile to South Auckland that are of concern.

They are "gifts" of cold, hard cash — solicited from a position of power and rationalised with a cynical reading of scripture.

But it's…

St Francis & the blessing of animals happened last month, normally gets a human interest story on TV, pet lambs, dogs, etc. Anglicans & Catholics do this – great fun for the kids.

In their arid and pitiably limited theology, orthodox Anglicans and Catholics deny the possibility of souls to animals. It's…

It took me a moment to register the silence; another to realise that he was waiting for me to apologise,

nah, he was waiting for you to surprise him with a gift.

religious groups get away from tax on the presumption that all religious activity is charitable

I thought it was something to do with separating church and state, historically. I agree it doesn't really stand up these days.

There is plenty wrong with both organisations, but an older middleage man who has quite a…

But, honestly, the fact that religious groups get…

Could you clarify what your gripe is, if you in fact have any, with the sign outside of that church in Carcassone?

Speaking for myself, the bit about no animals. Once you restrict the possibility of having a soul to the potentially monied, you reveal your religion for the racket…

I think you can quite safely put it down to the translation being…

Tax Cu*ts Now!

Tee shirt gold.

Especially when it so closely resembles a clenched arsehole — which deserves some kind of award for truth in branding, but otherwise...

I am reminded of an anagram for "information superhighway" coined during the Netscape age:

"Oh oh, wiring snafu. Empty air."

It took me a moment to register the silence; another to realise that he was waiting for me to apologise, and finally another in which I deduced that the apology was expected for uttering a profanity in the presence of a holy man.

Hehe, it was hilarious watching Brian Scamaki…

Why did you put the new Telecom logo into "Cunts"?

Especially when it so closely resembles a clenched arsehole — which deserves some kind of award for truth in branding, but otherwise...