Island Life: BP-Fuelled Rage
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Incidentally, if anyone's making loadsamoney out of the price of gas, it isn't BP shareholders. 5 year chart. The stock price has more or less underperformed the FTSE over five years.
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Vans, trucks, buses and horsefloats need to be that big by virtue of their function. Likewise, by virtue of their function, they are quite rare.
Furthermore, it has been my experience as the driver of a small car that buses and trucks tend to be quite curteous when it comes to matters such as letting one turn right on a busy road, being mindful of the fact that the vehicles in front of them might want to slow down and turn at some point, etcetera. The SUVs are usually driven by idiots who wouldn't stop for their dying grandmother and will sit about half a metre from your rear bumper because you have the temerity to be driving at 49kmph in a 50k zone.
It may be true that it's the driver, not the car, but in that case I'd question why SUVs attract that sort of driver. In fact, there does tend to be one exception to the SUV-drivers-suck rule: SUVs which are covered in about an inch of mud, i.e., are or have been used for a purpose suited to their size and power, tend to be driven curteously. It's the shiny ones that have clearly never left the city you gotta watch out for.
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A S,
Driving in parts of Auckland where SUVs are common is quite frustrating as they block your line of sight.
Vans, trucks, buses and horsefloats need to be that big by virtue of their function. Likewise, by virtue of their function, they are quite rare.
By the arguments put forward, I would expect that vans would be equally hard to see past etc.
Buses and trucks would have worse, and if you live in cities, I'd argue that bus drivers are by far more dangerous to all and sundry than the average SUV driver.
Actually, SUVs are damn useful for their intended purpose. They are also very handy people movers, with good load capacities and ability to seat multiple people.
The point I've been trying to make is that the hatred of SUV's seems to be based on emotion, rather than rational thought.
My personal hatred of idiots who insist on trying to drive the length of the country in underpowered toy cars, and who insist on impeding my progress along the way shouldn't result in a call to ban cars of less than a certain power output from the roads.
Nor should my contention that anyone wearing a hat whilst driving is a congenital idiot result in a new police ticketing regime.
In the end, the dislike of SUVs and their drivers is just as pointless as a motivation for trying to get rid of them.
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Rik,
A S - I agree with you and am very surprised at the tone of this thread.
So a Subaru wagon is "OK" but a Ford Territory is not? Who decides what is an SUV and what is not? Perhaps Lucy could...
SUVs are usually driven by idiots who wouldn't stop for their dying grandmother
...or perhaps not.
Perhaps we should avoid the emotional generalisations (all SUV drivers are nasty bad people) and look at facts?
SUV's are bigger than cars. But smaller than most "people movers".
SUV's use more gas than cars. Other than hitting the pocket of the driver is this such a bad thing? The debate continues on Global Warming/Global Dimming - possibly the sooner fossil fuels are used up and an alternative (cycling?) is found the better for everyone.
SUV's are quite handy for towing boats and heavy trailers.
SUV's often have 7 seats which get used more often than you would think.
SUV's are generally four wheel drive which can be quite useful in off-road situations.
This debate could get as silly as vegetarians that are happy to wear leather shoes or hybrid-drivers that are happy to burn fuel flying on airliners.
We're all people - some nicer than others - no matter what we happen to drive.
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Yes, vans are just as bad. But there aren't as many of them, and they have the justification of being goods vehicles.
"SUVs are damn useful for their intended purpose. They are also very handy people movers, with good load capacities and ability to seat multiple people."
But really, isn't the intended purpose of the SUV to give a (false) sense of security to the driver? Almost all the ones I see are clean, unloaded, and with one person in them. If I am to judge by how they are actually used, as opposed to the offroad fantasy they project, they are no more work vehicles than my jeans are miner's pants or my trainers are sports shoes.
As "people movers", there are dedicated vehicles for that purpose - they are called "cars" or for more than four people, "minivans".
And in fact, I wouldn't mind that people want to brand themselves by driving a sporty vehicle that sends gratifying semiotic signals - that would be highly hypocritical of me - except that their particular choice is dangerous to other people.
You are right that there is some emotion behind that: when people put an irrational desire to be high up above the safety of their fellow citizens, it makes me cross.
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Rik,
Stephen - now I think I understand.
It is OK to have an SUV if you are using it for its stated purpose 100% of the time.
However - if you have to interrupt your life of fun to turn up to work occasionally (as some of us do) then you need to have a separate small vehicle to transport yourself to work. Or get on the bus/train/ferry.
Does the same hold true for the mum in a people mover going out to the shops without the kids? Should she also have a separate small car to avoid the sort of wrath an SUV driver will receive?
And as far as "clean SUV's being the worst" - I find that business attire soon becomes grubby when driving a mud-caked SUV. So I point the hose at it occasionally. Oh dear - now I am going to cop it for wasting precious water. Which could be used to generate power. And for putting more pressure on the wastewater system. Gee I'm bad.
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The debate continues on Global Warming/Global Dimming - possibly the sooner fossil fuels are used up and an alternative (cycling?) is found the better for everyone.
Umm, yup. There's an argument.
It is OK to have an SUV if you are using it for its stated purpose 100% of the time.
I think the point is, it'd be good if people used it for its stated purpose more than 0% of the time.
If you own a Humvee for example, you should be going to war just occasionally, or at least training for such.
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the car of choice for the nation's most self-centered people
I often wonder about SUV drivers.
Heh! As the owner of a BEAST of an SUV... I can tell you the choice was made by the primary driver, who feels the cold & fell in love with the heated seats.
That and the 20 or so airbags, since we travel notorious parts of SH1 at least once a week.
Although when it's time is up, iot'll be replaced by something that costs a fraction of this thing to run.
As for being intimidating to other drivers and hard to see around - not even close to the impact of the average articulated truck that shares the highway.
And for anyone that scorns SUVs that never leave the paved road... I assure you I've had to drive up on the curb on more than one occasion.
Left to my own devices, since someone asked about compensating for body parts... I prefer very small cars, my first was a Fiat Bambina.
:)
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Vans, trucks, buses and horsefloats need to be that big by virtue of their function. Likewise, by virtue of their function, they are quite rare.
Not so rare on State Highway 1 Stephen. Quite common in fact.
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Reclassify SUVs as light trucks, so they'll need an HT licence to drive them
That would require reworking the whole classification system for driver's licences, which is based on weight and number of axles. An SUV weighs considerably less than 4500kg, which is the point at which a class 1 licence ceases to be sufficient.
As for the people suggesting that diesel has got so much more expensive because of a conspiracy by the fuel companies to raise the pump price, diesel's global price has gone through the roof, way ahead of movements in petrol prices. At one point diesel was at in the vicinity of USD200/bbl, while petrol's usually only about USD10/bbl more expensive than the crude from which it's made.
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A blanket ban wouldn't be fair on those who do go dirt-bashing regularly. Reclassify SUVs under the HT licence system, and most farmers and dirt-bashers will probably have little trouble passing it. The poseurs will be filtered out.
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PS. the above statement was in reply to Rik.
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If you own a Humvee for example, you should be going to war just occasionally, or at least training for such.
Or you probably should own it in a city where the roads are wider than the vehicle - not Wellington for example, but there are one or two here.
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It's kind of funny how personal this has got.
Couple of points
* There are plenty of old poorly tuned, Surfs, Teranos and Bighorns (esp. the Lotus version) around
* I learnt to drive in an '84 Holden Jackaroo. It has a 2L motor. Most of the Surfs/Hiluxes of that era has 2-2.5L motors. These days, 4WDs start at maybe 2.7, but 3-4L is the norm. The ol' 2L Jackaroo was quite capable of towing a big load, but maybe not the 120km/h norm you see across the Canterbury Plains, SUV+boat
* Modern SUVs are terrifying. The ol' Holden had no power steering. You got a pretty good idea of why it was a bad idea to go round corners at speed (damn good workout). The new ones you just point and shoot round the corner, at least until your grip gives out.
* As a grow'd up (ish), I considered buying a 4WD, but eventually decided the benefits didn't outweigh the costs. Thus, I started out with 2WD station wagons, and eventually moved into 4WD station wagons. I think I occasionally burst SUV owners bubbles when they're out the back of beyond, and they see me driving past in a car. Even people who take their vehicles off-road don't usually take them places you can't get a 4WD car, or a 2WD car for that matter.
* There are places I can't go in my car, which is kind of sad, but they're pretty few and far between. There is one ford in the Rainbow, the Nevis is probably a little nasty ford-wise, but I have got a 2WD car from Bannockburn to Clyde (recommended, in a slightly insane sort of way). The Old Dunstan Road is pretty great as well.In conclusion, having a 4WD is a little like having a towbar. It's quite useful, but you might be rather surprised what you can do without one. Admittedly, towbars don't do a great deal for street cred.
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Incidentally, if anyone's making loadsamoney out of the price of gas, it isn't BP shareholders. 5 year chart. The stock price has more or less underperformed the FTSE over five years.
Any idea of BP's total shareholder return (ie share price plus reinvested dividends) vs FTSE? I'll have a look on Bloomberg this faternoon if I get a chance otherwise.
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A S,
Just a niggly little point. SUVs don't really have a single stated purpose. By definition, they are supposed to be able to do many things, hence the Utility part of SUV.
Again, the rationale of the debate extended thus far smacks of dislike, rather than any compelling reason to change.
If I should ever choose to own and SUV, it is my call. I pay for it, I pay to run it, I determine how I wish to use it. If you want to tell me what I should drive, perhaps I should come around to your houses and tell you what to read, or what music to listen to, or what causes you can support. How successful would that be? In my experience, telling people what they should, or shouldn't do, drive, believe, or think just doesn't work.
Just to state it again, a subjective dislike for something does not equate to any useful rationale for doing away with it.
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Who cares what it's purpose is, it looks cool parked out the front
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If I should ever choose to own and SUV, it is my call. I pay for it, I pay to run it
But ultimately, the problem I and many others have is that you are imposing costs (externalities) on others, when that vehicle is compared to a lighter vehicle that performs almost better under almost all use scenarios. I'm thinking a Subaru Outback here, for arguments sake. Reduced air quality and greenhouse gas emissions, higher road wear and tear, more noise, less safety for pedestrians, cyclists and drivers of smaller vehicles, etc.
That said, I find the preachy tone of those who drive other vehicles but deride SUV owners quite distasteful. A large vehicle that is rarely driven will have much less impact on all the above points than a smaller one driven larger distances. This immodest proposal is worth considering: how many of those kilometres are essential? A person driving a Prius to the shops is much worse than a SUV driver who walks. And don't get me started about Prius drivers who think they're saving the planet!
Lets all consider the alternative. It's pretty good. And the fuel costs are zero.
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Lets all consider the alternative. It's pretty good. And the fuel costs are zero.
Not so great for moving a load of firewood &/or a couple of sheep.
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In conclusion, having a 4WD is a little like having a towbar. It's quite useful, but you might be rather surprised what you can do without one. Admittedly, towbars don't do a great deal for street cred.
I wanted to get a towball on my Suzuki Swift, but my partner wasn't keen. Too try-hard, he thought.
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Too try-hard, he thought.
This is almost embarrassing to mention - we have a removable tow bar.
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Just a niggly little point. SUVs don't really have a single stated purpose. By definition, they are supposed to be able to do many things, hence the Utility part of SUV.
Yeah, but not many other vehicles have a single stated purpose, and if you're considering the set of purposes that various modes of wheeled thing have in common, and what sets an SUV apart, it is the 4WD bit. Otherwise, it shares most of the same purposes as say a van or a people mover.
In a fairly spurious vein, I note a (diesel) Ford Transit is good for 8.1 L/100km, which is comfortably better than a Land Cruiser or a Previa for that matter. And you'd be surprised how much stuff and people you can fit in a Transit. And I've seen them tow some pretty good loads as well.
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Not so great for moving a load of firewood &/or a couple of sheep.
There are a lot of things you can move on a bicycle. Especially if you have a cargo bike, a http://www.metaefficient.com/bicycles/longtail-bikes-a-review-and-buying-guide.htmllongtail bike, or a bike trailer. A good cargo bike will carry two children and a load of groceries in style!
Admittedly, there are occasions when you're going to need a motor vehicle. I needed to move a queen size bed a few weeks ago, so I hired a ute. If I needed to move more, I'd hire a small truck. And if I needed to move a lot on a regular basis, owning such a vehicle would probably make sense. I've owned a van before, because I needed it to do certain things. But it was mostly parked up.
The point is not that bicycles do everything, but that most of the time, people aren't asking themselves "is this really necessary" and "what are the alternatives"?
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I probably should have made the full disclosure that my 2-person household (based in the centre of the big little city) became carless when we moved into the Urban Jungle.
I now ride a bike and love it. I haven't even been run over yet! -
And for anyone that scorns SUVs that never leave the paved road... I assure you I've had to drive up on the curb on more than one occasion.
You need an SUV to drive up on the curb? Man, my 2WD Toyota sedan must be a real workhorse, and don't tell my girlfriend's wee hatchback. It'll get delusions of grandeur.
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