Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: You know what ...

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  • Stephen Judd, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    It really is a remarkably bizarre thing to suggest, it would be laughable except I have no doubt there will be conspiracy groups that will suggest this for decades to some

    Surely it's obvious that Obama the secret Muslim would set this fake death up to allow the search for his mate Osama to be called off -- Osama can then continue to organise their joint plan of destroying the USA.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston,

    Can I call you other things as well?

    umm well ok , naive, suspicious, un-trusting, won’t get fooled again and other things.
    But don’t you think it odd that there has been no evidence at all put up – just the president’s word. Hang on let me think, when was the last time a US President lied to the world.
    And please don’t lump me in with the conspiracy groups, I am just as skeptical of their claims.
    Saddam Hussein’s death is all over the net, including grisly videos of the execution.
    Why not Bin Laden ?

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Richard Aston,

    Why not Bin Laden ?

    Obama has a bit more class than Bush?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to BenWilson,

    Yes. And, if the videos of combat (who knew SEALS come with vidcams in their helmets?!) and disposal of body are seriously required, they'll be out there-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Sacha,

    No not in the future - The Clinton, Bush and Obama administration have all seen the creation of a Palestinian state as the solution. Without the moderating influence of the US the Middle East would be a war zone – it would be a lot worse.

    The Obama administration have been taking Netanyahu head on. The last direct talks that Netanyahu had with Obama in 2010 ended with no photo op – the we are shaking hands and making progress shot. I read somewhere that Obama refused to be photographed with him and would not agree to release a press statement, let along a joint one.

    It is my opinion that the US, particularly in the wake of Cyclone Katrina and the GFC, doesn't have the budget to continue to fund Israel to the degree it seems to need adn this will be a consideration particularly when the Aid doesn’t solve the problem - the solution I mentioend above.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Islander,

    Yes. And, if the videos of combat (who knew SEALS come with vidcams in their helmets?!) and disposal of body are seriously required, they’ll be out there-

    Oh but they could all be filmed on the same set where "They" faked the moon landing.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2937 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    I just can't see OBL hanging out with Elvis.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to nzlemming,

    Yeah, right!

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Neil Morrison, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    after all he was Reagan's golden boy fighting the russians in Afghanistan, funded by the US

    That bin Laden was supported by the US during the 80s is a myth.

    He came to prominence by creating a system of non-Afghani fighters that was resourced independently of the USA and other non-Muslim countries which were funding the Afghani Muslim fighters in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was even then completely against what he considered as unwarranted non-Muslim interference in Muslim affairs.

    His long-standing blood feud with the Saudi royals mostly stemmed from his objection to their acceptance of US support against Saddam.

    Also it's wrong to say that the US was unaware of bin Laden during the 90s. The Clinton administration took active measures against him but were constrained by the politics of the time in a way which Bush after 9/11 was not. Clinton missed some opportunities but that’s easy to say in hindsight.

    It's also not accurate to say the US paid no attention to the political motivations of bin Laden. Bin Laden’s biggest grudge against the US was US troops in Saudi Arabia which was why he started to target the US from the early 90s. Two weeks after Saddam fell the US pulled their troops from Saudi Arabia. Not a co-incidence.

    Since Nov 2006 • 932 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Neil Morrison,

    That bin Laden was supported by the US during the 80s is a myth

    You're hilarious

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to Neil Morrison,

    that was resourced independently of the USA and other non-Muslim countries

    Not at all true, Neil. His network was funded by the ISI who in turn were jointly funded by an equal split between the US and Saudi Arabia. It may not have been a direct line but it was a line of cash, and it went on for some years.

    Bin Laden's grouping also worked closely with Hekmatyar, the CIA golden boy for years.

    Once again, I suggest, if you've not yet done so, to read those two books I mentioned upthread, but especially Lawrence Wright's The Looming Tower which goes into this in some detail.

    However, if you are not inclined, this is a handy summary:

    the CIA and the Saudi government took care to supply money to the anti-Soviet resistance in Afghanistan indirectly through the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence Agency (ISI), a procedure that Pakistan insisted upon. Some of this CIA money went to a project in which bin Laden was deeply involved.

    There is lots more in those two, must-read if you are interested in this topic, books.

    The American right, and the likes of Fox in particular, has spent a fair amount of time trying to debunk the story, partially by loudly and repeatedly touting the half truth that 'we didn't give him money', but that's all it is - a half truth.

    Also i'ts wrong to say that the US was unaware of bin Laden during the 90s.

    Happily, no-one has said that.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Simon Grigg,

    You're not seriously expecting Neil to read anything with facts in it, are you?

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2937 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to DexterX,

    the moderating influence of the US

    You and Neil are some sort of double act, right?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Neil Morrison,

    That bin Laden was supported by the US during the 80s is a myth.

    And if Saddam and bin Laden were best buddies, then Elvis still lives and Lord Lucan is hiding out in NZ.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5445 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to richard,

    (and who can blame an American for feeling some degree of satisfaction at this news)

    Idiot/savant can, that’s who.

    Those taking satisfaction in it, are vengeful sadists, with the ethics of kitten-strangling psychopaths who kill for pleasure.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Parks, in reply to Richard Aston,

    Call me a skeptic but how do we know Bin Laden is dead –

    Apparently Donald Trump is calling for his death certificate.

    Wellington • Since May 2007 • 1165 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to DexterX,

    It is my opinion that the US, particularly in the wake of Cyclone Katrina and the GFC, doesn’t have the budget to continue to fund Israel to the degree it seems to need adn this will be a consideration particularly when the Aid doesn’t solve the problem – the solution I mentioend above.

    Not a problem - just cut those pesky Medicare payments, that'll free up plenty of cash for Israel.

    (And the aftermath of Katrina is...really not their biggest budgetary concern right now. I mean, really not.)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    When assessing how I feel about the death of Bin Laden, I note that Osama Bin Laden would have happily killed me and anyone on this forum by cutting our heads off with a stanley knife, if given half a chance.

    I hear he drowns puppies and pulls the wings off flies. He really is the cartoon ultimate super villan. I suspect he's probably actually quite civilised in person, and having read a bio of him earlier tonight, I'd imagine he's hardly ever done anything like stick a knife in someone. Mass murderer yes. Interested in you if he passed you in the street? Probably not.

    I think you’re absolutely fine in the large urban areas – Jakarta / Semarang / Surabaya – I’d head there without any hesitation.

    Bali?

    So, Danyl, the post WW2 war crimes trials in Nuremberg and Tokyo (flawed and ambiguous as they were) didn’t achieve anything – as opposed to going past the judge and jury and straight to the executioners?

    I'd imagine that the soldiers were given not very subtle messages that if he was to come out in a body bag, that would work out fine. Large segments of the USA were having kittens a couple of years ago about holding trials of terrorists in New York. Having a trial for the big cheese would have led to the motherfuck of all headaches and fears. And for what purpose (from their point of view)? Easier for him just to get shot and move on.

    Major feather in the cap of the Navy Seals to have gotten the mission. There's some serious crowing going on in that section of the US military. That one is going straight to the pool room.

    (And the aftermath of Katrina is…really not their biggest budgetary concern right now. I mean, really not.)

    Sadly, they managed to not make that one a very big budget priority. Large parts of it are still a horrible mess I understand.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Sacha,

    No, OBL recived funding from the US & Saudi.as stated by Simon.

    Your "wit" doesn't extend to expressing a counter view.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to DexterX,

    Waste of time arguing with wilful idiocy

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Kyle Matthews,

    Sadly, they managed to not make that one a very big budget priority. Large parts of it are still a horrible mess I understand.

    I was there in February for a Fulbright thing. We toured one of the worst-hit wards, and large chunks of it had just never been rebuilt - not a mess, per se, but just empty lot after empty lot, with only the concrete plinths that had been the front porches left. Rebuilding was happening, but through charities, not the government. I found that really depressing.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Phil fryer,

    The only USA foreigon policy seems oil out or guns in,pity the good folk of New Orleans,haven't seen consideration !
    This is a bit like waving the sausage-Ive got the biggest!Sure the planet is better of without OBL & Saddam,but that leaves a hell of a lot of despots, most of Africa for a start,most of the Stans,Burma,actually most paid clergy & proffessinal politicans, its getting harder to find a country to go to without moral compomise!

    Laingholm • Since Mar 2011 • 34 posts Report Reply

  • richard, in reply to Richard Aston,

    The US military will say and do anything – maybe if they can generate a big enough wave of acceptance of Bin Laden’s death it won’t matter if he is still alive – if he tried a video broadcast to say ” hey I’m still here” everyone would assume its a fake – case closed.
    I am not alone in saying show me the body

    I wouldn't take pride in "not being alone" -- other people on the internet are insisting that the moon landings never occurred, and I recently received a pamphlet from a group of fundamentalist Catholics insisting that Galileo was wrong and that the Church (c. 1600) was right -- that the earth really was at the center of the solar system [I am a cosmologist, so the mailing wasn't entirely random]. I am pretty sure they had a website.

    Lots of people are wrong on the internet, you know.

    If Osama is really alive he will be popping up in a video a few days from now, holding a recent copy of Time Magazine and saying "Booyah". If not he is swimming with da fishes.

    Not looking for New Engla… • Since Nov 2006 • 268 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to Kyle Matthews,

    Bali?

    I think if any place in Indonesia is a target it's Bali. The real question is whether JI is competent enough to pull it off. The last two attacks were successful more by luck (although not that of the victims) than planning.

    The radical edge of Indonesian militancy is notoriously inept, and its leadership is pretty dimwitted. It succeeds more by plodding away than by the success of any grand design.

    In 2002 the driver of the van had never driven a car before and bunny-hopped the vehicle down Jalan Legian, stalling several times.

    They are, however, aided by the fact that cops are often little better and security in Bali is at best a haphazard façade. There a quite a number of often very crowded restaurants in places like Seminyak that would be a very easy target.

    I'm just not sure they're bright enough to work it out.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Kyle Matthews,

    Having a trial for the big cheese would have led to the motherfuck of all headaches and fears. And for what purpose (from their point of view)? Easier for him just to get shot and move on.

    I don't reckon. They would have wanted to interrogate him, for starters, and also to put all questions that it's him to rest with numerous videos of him talking. He could have been tried in any number of courts and found guilty publicly. He could have been kept secretly in a prison for the most opportune moment. A trial would serve good purposes no matter what defence line he took - if he denied all charges he would be seen by jihadists as weak and betraying everything they believed in. If he pleaded guilty, the whole thing would be over rapidly and put to rest every question of the legality of whatever was going to happen to him.

    He'd probably thought all this through many times and decided that he wasn't going to be taken alive.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

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