*Taua Fan Gillies, who was one of the highborn Ngai Tahu women married into Ngati Toa to…

Very much so:…

Yes – there is always an element…

Alternatively, as Osama, you could regard making the US spend over a trillion dollars in return for…

May I ask a question about that? I've read the definitions online and understand that meaning but I also had the feeling that Utu as a word had nuances beyond what might be viewed as a commercial transaction. I really don't know exactly…

Heh

What if it's full of Nazis?

To be a bit pedantic, libel is a subset of defamation. It would be more correct to say “libel and slander” I think. (And no, it ain’t for good…

You miss the point re freedom of expression. Yes, it is limited under law.

However, when the chief censor decides not to restrict something controversial, that decision affirms and strengthens the general principle, and deepens our understanding of it, and helps us to grow in our relationship with it.…

If you say so Neil. To quote another post – a few up from here:

Because he wants them to mean a particular thing, that is all he can read in them

Excluding inconvenient words from sentences – like 'direct' in this case – or avoiding any…

they actually do, I have read them, try and put aside the condescension for a moment, I've kept from going personal.

But speaking of Fisk

Fisk:

But what of the Arab mujahedin he took to Afghanistan – members of a guerilla…

There is no legal justification under international law, including the laws of armed conflict, to deliberately target and kill an unarmed individual *if* they are *ARE* hors de combat

I’ve finally figured out what really pisses me off about that. It’s a really splendid argument for setting…

"Commercial sensitivity", "Top secret"... they're all the same. Wikileak This!

Always handy if you don't want to talk about a particular helicopter jaunt.

So I can't help but wonder what the "urgent meetings" about "security" were that Key needed to get back to Auckland that Friday…

There is no legal justification under international law, including the laws of armed conflict, to deliberately target and kill an unarmed individual *if* they are not hors de combat. The…

"Defence matters"? Sounds like a recipe for never having to be accountable at all.

Neil – neither back your assertion at all, if you'd bothered to actually read what they said and the above posts. In their books, and in Wright and Fisks…

Well no, I've source material from credible journalists who state that the US did not fund bin Laden, that he was funded quite seperately by the Saudi govt and by funds raised within the Muslim world.

I'll stick with…

yet .... no "al'Q in #INdonesia" since…

as far as I can tell no US funding, resources went to bin Laden.

It seems you are pretty…

To be fair, I think Brian Edwards has burned them all.

I think I’ll stick with Steve Coll and Jason Burke.

We can probably continue to trade quotes without coming to any agreement but I still find the sources I’ve cited…

Well ahead of you on the pig-wrestling front

I almost give up.

1. MAK was a vehicle for the ISI.

2. The ISI was funded by joint monies from Saudi Arabia and the USA. I doubt they marked each bill with a note explaining who it was from.

3.…

emphasis added. Yes the CIA funded the…

It is a Straw man. Neil, it still comes down to the handy 'direct' which you use to muddy things – as others do.

CIA funding went via the ISI – it was matched…

I saw that and thought it was a cleverly subversive sub. To the management at the Dom Post, revenge killing is clearly a Good Thing, so they were happy to run it. For at least some of their readers (and I suspect, for the headline writer) it's not.

it’s not a straw man, I was responding to this statement regarding bin Laden up thread:

after all he was Reagan’s golden boy fighting the russians in Afghanistan, funded by the US

As I said that’s a myth, I’ve…

Thanks for the attempt to continually insert a straw man, Neil.

That pretty much…

'Utu' with a cherry on top.

This particular 'wild west' approach to the global terrorist hunt comes with…

I'm not sure on what basis you doubt Jason Burke's credibility when it comes to this topic, from his wiki:

In 2003, Burke authored Al-Qaeda: Casting a Shadow of Terror, which was later updated…

Yes, but I'll lean further towards 'cockup' (or rather 'muddle'), than I will 'conspiracy' on this one. We're only a few days out from a major event that, by necessity, would be shrouded in 'need-to-know' type secrecy. Most of what we'll…

I love the depth of evidence that supports that detail in that article, Neil – none. I'm more comfortable with the researched and printed evidence elsewhere.

Also – don't you worry that you've stated one thing as a myth and…

The guy I saw was pretty up-front that the primary order was to kill, not capture. Whether capture was…

Bin Laden, according to a briefing on Monday, used his wife as a human shield and she was killed. By Tuesday, the White House reversed that: she had not been…

Ae. Though I wonder if it's just the word being shorter than "Vengeance" (or "Gotcha" for that matter) and so allowing a larger headline. Blood seems to bring that out in editors..

I was somewhat more hopeful then that we'd do better.

Today we hear that:
– Osama was unarmed when shot
– He didn’t use a woman as a human shield as earlier ‘reported’
– He was identified by facial recognition software…

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that — I think it's tasteless, misleading and more fitting for the box of a Playstation first person shooter game than a serious daily newspaper.

Still, __ka…

Welcome to the NZ government's housing policy. For real.

Hmmm. Hold up on the "we got the goods…

Another myth but that one popular with the Right.

Jason Burke deals with The 10 key myths about Osama bin Laden.

First up, the myth he was funded by the CIA:

He did not receive any direct funding or training from…

Ok fair enough. As I said the cost of getting this wrong would be enormous – the president would be laughed out of office, several heads of department would go as well. These people really like their pay packets and the power of their jobs…

UTU

Speechless.

I don't reckon. They would have wanted to interrogate him, for starters, and…

I think if any place in Indonesia is a target it's Bali. The real question is whether JI is competent enough to pull it off. The last two attacks were successful more by luck (although not that of the victims) than planning.

The radical edge of Indonesian militancy is…

I was there in February for a Fulbright thing. We toured one of the worst-hit wards, and large chunks of it had just never been rebuilt…

Your "wit" doesn't extend to expressing a counter view.

I hear he drowns puppies and pulls the wings…

Apparently Donald Trump is calling for his death certificate.

Idiot/savant can, that’s who.

Those taking satisfaction in it, are vengeful sadists, with the ethics of kitten-strangling psychopaths who kill for pleasure.

You and Neil are some sort of double act, right?

Not at all true, Neil. His network was funded by the ISI who in turn were jointly funded by an equal split between the US and Saudi Arabia. It may not have been a direct line but it was…

You're hilarious

That bin Laden was supported by the US during the 80s is a myth.

He came to prominence by creating a system of non-Afghani fighters that was resourced independently of the USA and other…

Oh but they could all be filmed on the same set where "They" faked the moon landing.

The Obama administration have…

Obama has a bit more class than Bush?

Surely it's obvious that Obama the secret Muslim would set this fake death up to allow the search for…

Can I call you other things as well?

Claiming bin Laden is dead without being sure would leave the US open to the most embarrassing rebuttal eg a photo of bin Laden with a copy of the NYT.

It really is a remarkably bizarre thing to…

I think the way we'll know he's dead for quits will be when he doesn't release another video of himself laughing off claims of his death.

Oh, you mean that the US might decide to 'restrain' Israel in the future, not that they have already been doing…

If it was a fake attack it would be pretty easy to prove, and then Obama would be impeached, sacked and and disgraced. Political leaders tend to operate with pretty low risk thresholds when…

The Obama administration and Netanyahu were at logger heads for much of 2010.

Clinton took a 4 part ultimatum to Israel early 2010, which the USA want Israel to…

Going back to that, very detailed & pretty highly regarded, Ghost Wars book I mentioned up-thread,…

Sounds like Rich Hall at the Comedy Store regarding a bucket…

I guess my interpretation was that the GG elect was "following…

But anyway… I’m finding this discussion very interesting because it’s forcing me to examine my beliefs and follow them to wherever they…

Pretty much. It felt rather odd, the question was so genuine. He really had no idea whether NZ was full of Bin Laden sympathizers.

And most importantly did you ask where to get good coffee in Utah?…

I…

Especially when, in the wake of the Arab Spring, there's a viable alternative to the idea.

Mm. My thoughts exactly at the "elderly". Had to do some counting up (on my fingers, albeit).

Hear hear!

such humour

+1

They thought about it, and decided not to on the grounds that then they'd never get anyone to believe he was dead. Which is probably correct.

snap

Is it the past history itself that's important, or the future risk we assess…

ETA:

Applied to pretty much any other country in the world, this sort of analysis would look pretty thin, but somehow it is fine to apply it to the good ole USofA.
Oh, snap, -ish.

Jack Mormon Coffee Co (known locally as 'beans worth roasting for').

But as Jon pointed out in passing on Media 7, this particular senior military person also seems to think he and his underlings are exempt from the Official Information Act. (Which, I suspect, was deliberately…

What did you say? My own answer would have been "I guess so".

And most importantly did you ask where to get good coffee in Utah?

You can probably get an ointment for that.

I know what I am supposed to feel – that it's the end of an era. But it doesn't feel like that to me – the era…

Well does he know when to stop, what if he decides that…

Does the catchphrase, "Don't you worry…

I doubt very much that they wanted him to die in the capture. They would have wanted…

I don't know if the SEALs would have been able to capture him. I don't think it's possible to define his death as an execution without more information. However, it will be viewed that way by many people.

Oh you young pup ;-)
I'm surprised he is not regarded as a Baby Boomber

And doing what Americans do best, shouting "Wooo, Yeah, USA, USA"
In the end it's a game of two halves. When the sucking of…

Senior military personnel are quite well known for saying things that are not the truth. Sometimes it's even their job. I am significantly less concerned about his role than I am about successive political leaders, but not surprised.

This.

I understand on…

Although our DNA is roughly 99.9% identical, there is such a huge variation in the other 0.1% (which are mostly non-coding regions) that…

Half-siblings is still plenty close enough for a match. As good as first cousins,…

Sounds cleaner to me. No mention of nazi death panel combos.

hah.

So far I've learned that Obama didn't smile enough in the speech, he didn't seem happy about what he was saying, he was too flowery when talking about 9/11, used the…

Economist blogger ‘E.G’ seems to agree with you. I hope you’re both right, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on the Tea Baggers (and their GOP panderers) having a rational neuron…

Oh, not because they doubt the validity – with sibling DNA you could establish it was Osama beyond reasonable doubt – but because…

And *that's* the problem with your argument, right there. ;)

I do. Because it was. No amount of Monday-morning quarterbacking ten years on can change the fact that, for everyone but a tiny handful of people at the very top, it was a shock attack with zero…

You’d think that might have stuck in people’s minds.

With the help of *their* television news? Are you kidding? :) (We can’t even get people in NZ to remember how shitty privatisation was last go-round.)

The response in 2001, taking its cue from Bush, verged on the infantile

That’s true,…

Could you elucidate? I'm prepared to believe they had DNA (familial?) for comparison, but obviously I have no idea what…

Osama over played his hand in grand…

I can assure you…

and for further proof that these are the final days
Rush Limbaugh & Glenn Beck praise Obama!

I am not troubled…

but to the general public, it was entirely unexpected, and crippling

This. I think it can be pretty safely assumed that most people in the USA – with the exception of foreign policy experts and academics – had absolutely no clue.

We are supposed to…

So, Danyl, the post WW2 war crimes trials in Nuremberg and Tokyo (flawed and ambiguous as they were) didn’t achieve anything – as opposed to going past the judge and…

Your website did it :-) I thought I was replying to webweaver. Sorry.

R.

I get the sentiment, but I'm not sure what that would achieve. There's no doubt about his crimes or culpability. And he was living in an…

The New York manifestations, on the other hand, sound more sombre and interrogative. I'm trying to get my head around this enough to blog…

Who bells the cat – are you volunteering?

No, it was unique. The sense in the popular consciousness was that foreigners couldn't come to the US and kill people. Pearl Harbour was half the Pacific away; all the US's twentieth-century wars had been…

And yet he declared it before that – in Pakistan in the 1980s. Prescient I guess.

He was quite clear before…

I'll do it.

When given a choice between trusting a journalist with sources, and a government with every reason to lie, I will pick the journo every time.

The surprise when the images of the people dancing in the streets of the Middle East were shown on US TV in 2001 would tend to argue that there was less awareness of the anti-US rage in the Islamic world…

Actually I think there is voluminous evidence that far, far more people have died in the War on Terror than died in 9/11, many of who were innocents, and…

I don't have references to hand but I am confident that even just in Iraq you are dead wrong about that.

It would be mad not to take previous behaviour into account. Us armchair generals can debate the morality 'til the cows come home but I reckon you'd be hard pressed to find many ethicists of…

Yes and no. Jemaah Islamiah, who bombed Bali twice, has only ever had a very loose operational affiliation with AQ despite…

No. And one could be a tad bitchy and note that the Prime Minister took retired prank caller 'Hone' Carter seriously enough to make him Civil Defence Minister. :)

It did happen, sorta, a while ago. I gather it was more to do with Garner having the PM's number on his phone, Stephenson not believing him it was the number and someone dialing Key to prove…

Pick me – because I’m finding it increasingly difficult to escape the conclusion that if Jerry Mateparae wasn’t lying (either by commission or omission) he was promoted above his level of competence more than a decade back.

And I…