Hard News: When that awful thing happens
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It was an armoured vehicle that allowed them to retrieve Len Snee's body under fire. I can't see the point of risking anyone else's life on the basis that an armoured vehicle might unnerve some people.
You don't think bringing something armed with a 25 mm. cannon capable of firing at 200 rounds per minute into action in a suburban area might be potentially life-threatening? And all to accomplish the merely symbolic task of retrieving a body? It seems to me there's something of a flaw in that logic. LAVs aren't designed simply to 'unnerve' people -- they're designed kill, quickly and efficiently.
In this case, no, not at all -- and I don't think this makes a "trend" either.
The 'trend' I was referring to the aftermath of the Project Lincoln recommendations. The use of LAVs in Napier is one of the consequences of these.
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It was an armoured vehicle that allowed them to retrieve Len Snee's body under fire. I can't see the point of risking anyone else's life on the basis that an armoured vehicle might unnerve some people.
Exactly. The sight of them on the street is pretty disturbing, but the situation they were dealing with was even more disturbing, so it seems like a case of the right tool for the right job. Note that that's not a reference to Greg O'Connor, who's clearly the wrong tool in the wrong job.
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And all to accomplish the merely symbolic task of retrieving a body?
Go tell his family that it was a symbolic task.
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To look at guns is probably the best action we could take.
Day one of the Duck Hunting season and it was one man dead, one boy injured and dozens of protected wildlife killed.
Two things need to be done. All weapons and ammunition need to be registard. From here we can tell which were 'stolen' and which were sold ilegally. It won't stop crime but allow for the tracing of weapons and holding those who enable crime to be punished.
Had a look at Kiwibolg on Friday and a number of comments mentioned the amount of hunter who are not licenced that they run into in DoC huts and that they are realy check up on regarding their firearms/license.
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This was a massive police overreaction sparked by a bungled drugs raid. Doesn't anyone else find the trend towards militarized policing in this country just a little scary?
"overreaction"? To a man who demonstrated that he had no qualms about opening fire on unarmed police? Overreaction would've been following through on some of the more nutjob-like TBR caller suggestions. My favourite was dropping heavy things on the house from a helicopter, to crush it and the man within.
The LAVs were there because, unlike a number of American police departments our police don't have armoured vehicles at their disposal. Something about militarisation of the police, you say? Not at all. Having to look at or know that their colleague's body was lying there for 33 hours, unable to retrieve it due to taking fire on every approach, is really bad for morale. Even unconsciously it is on the mind of every senior officer, right the way up to Broad, and that's not healthy when the situation is still unstable. Retrieving Snee's body removed that distraction, but the only way it was happening was with the LAVs.
Also, with at-risk civilians in the area, how would you have had the police extract them? In their patrol cars? Trying to protect them with those ballistic shields as they crossed hundreds of metres of firing range? Get real. You're yet another Armchair General who thinks that he could've handled it better than the officers on the ground.
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And yet for all the media coverage, very, very little was made of the sensational use of the light armoured vehicles in this seige. It is without precedent in New Zealand, and yet was barely remarked upon. Eye witness accounts say the LAV may even have returned fire when recovering Len Snee's body. Surely this is possibly the MOST unusual aspect of this seige?
Pics or it didn't happen, frankly.
I've been reading a bit recently about the reliability of eyewitness evidence (bottom line: not very).
I find it extremely difficult to belive anyone would be stupid enough to authorise, let alone use, a 20mm cannon or .50 machine gun in that situation.
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oops, should have put that top bit in quotes.
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The 'trend' I was referring to the aftermath of the Project Lincoln recommendations. The use of LAVs in Napier is one of the consequences of these.
Still not seeing a trend here. The guy was tooled up with guns and explosives. What equipment exactly should the police have used? Horses?
Weren't the police just using the best tools for the job? So what if it meant some LAVs got to drive down Napier's streets?
Or is there some sinister army threat to NZ's democracy that I've missed hearing about?
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You don't think bringing something armed with a 25 mm. cannon capable of firing at 200 rounds per minute into action in a suburban area might be potentially life-threatening?
Or perhaps you could take the view that the police actually fired only two shots in the course of the whole, extremely dangerous situation in which a madman was firing dozens of rounds from military rifles.
And all to accomplish the merely symbolic task of retrieving a body?
After bravely attempting to retrieve it under fire. If an armoured vehicle allowed them to do so safely, I don't have a problem with it.
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Craig, I've just deleted your last post. I won't disagree with you about O'Connor, but your way of expressing your point was unacceptable.
Fair enough, Russell. It was also rather inaccurate comparing him to people who are afflicted by a psychological disorder not of their own volition. O'Connor knows exactly what he's doing, and in a funny way I'm more pissed at people like Lynn Freeman (and whoever produced Nine To Noon nowadays) who let him spray his bile unchallenged, to a degree I don't believe anyone else would get away with.
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merely symbolic task
You say this as if it was a bad thing?
Symbols are important. Leaving a dead policeman on the street is a symbol as well.
An LAV on the street in the hands of a trained driver is not a hazard. And even if it was, the symbolic act of retrieving a body was well worth any risk.
My opinion of course.
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You don't think bringing something armed with a 25 mm. cannon capable of firing at 200 rounds per minute into action in a suburban area might be potentially life-threatening?
Pah. Call that a gun. Our Anzac frigates carry this freaky radar-targeted machine-gun that fires about 2400 rounds per minute to shoot down incoming missiles:
I'm not sure that the good folk of Devonport are worried by this when the ships are in dock. Perhaps they trust the people driving them?
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Two things need to be done. All weapons and ammunition need to be registard.
No. Just no! A firearms registry does absolutely nothing to help with gun crime, and ends up costing north of a billion dollars, vastly more than projected, and that's without actually being completed. They're worthless "be seen to be doing something" projects, nothing more.
At least Chester Borrows seems to have a clue, saying "the horse has already bolted" when asked if a registry would catch all the existing firearms. Hopefully that'll be the end of it, though I can already hear Alpers' strident cries to resurrect the registry concept.
As for Lawhs (article above), don't get me started. Arming the police is not the solution, it's just a way of adding to the problem. I haven't seen anyone credible (O'Connor isn't credible, and hasn't suggested it anyway) suggest that things would've been the least bit different if Snee et al had been operating under a permanent-carry model. The only thing the police could've done differently that would've absolutely resulted in a different outcome would be if they'd treated it as a high-risk warrant and gone in with the AOS. But they had no information to indicate that was necessary, and it's totally impractical to treat every search warrant as high-risk.
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I am not a militaristic type, but I have no problem with the state calling on all its resources to do something that was undoubtedly deeply important to all of that slain policeman's family, friends and colleagues. That's a basic human motivation, Caleb - and it's why you'll see a huge effort put in to recover bodies from plane crashes and suchlike.
There may be wider issues with management of our armed forces (and I don't know enough to comment), but this does not seem likely to be one of them. Frankly I'd rather have the army in charge of as you say a killing machine than the police have their own, just in case.
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Sacha: Our Frigate de-ammunition as soon as they arrive in port, and the ammo, torpedoes and missiles are barged around to kauri Point to stop some any sort of accidental or deliberate use of the weapons.
One thing that was rather comforting in a strange way - when the LAV carrying Len Snee's body came back down the hill, the driver (despite having been shot at with an automatic weapon) remembered to indicate before turning right.
We are still a fundamentally law abiding society.
I would just like to be reassured all the right legal boxes were ticked before the army were called in.
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The only thing the police could've done differently that would've absolutely resulted in a different outcome would be if they'd treated it as a high-risk warrant and gone in with the AOS. But they had no information to indicate that was necessary, and it's totally impractical to treat every search warrant as high-risk.
No to mention that it would also provoke justifiable public outrage if they did so.
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Ta, Tom - that's reassuring. Don't know much about the operational aspects beyond the maintenance planning software. It's the most lethal vehicle I've ever set foot in - and the most expensive. Smaller than I thought it would be, too.
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Also, with at-risk civilians in the area, how would you have had the police extract them? In their patrol cars? Trying to protect them with those ballistic shields as they crossed hundreds of metres of firing range? Get real.
It's worth remembering that this guy was shooting at anything that moved, including his neighbours - and, by all reports, shooting quite accurately with a high-powered rifle. If I was there, I'd have wanted a fucking tank, let alone a LAV, to do any moving around.
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I would just like to be reassured all the right legal boxes were ticked before the army were called in.
There are none, for something like the use of the LAVs that was undertaken. The Logistics Manager determines that the available resources are inadequate and advises the Incident Controller. The IC and the LM establish that a resource is available through the Army, and a request is sent through the Police to the Ministry of Defence to mobilise armoured vehicles to act in a support role for evacuation. It's not an armed deployment to carry out police functions (and I wouldn't be surprised if the LAVs didn't even have ammunition on-board when they were carrying out duties), so there's no issue of the Defence Act requirement to notify Parliament. That's only necessary if the IC wants to use soldiers to do a police job, such as sending in the SAS to terminate a terrorist incident. Simply making use of military vehicles to do things for which the police lack the equipment isn't a devolution of powers.
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On the media response. I don't listen to talk-back so I can only imagine how awful it is. I listen to National Radio (oops Radio NZ National). I wish I could say I expect better from them. I listened to Morning Report as I drove to work today. Can't recall who was asking the questions but he was really trying to get the interviewees to say that they'd lived in fear of their neighbour - the gun crazed maniac. When someone says that they had barely spoken to the man and that he was big man, the next logical question isn't "did you feel intimidated by him". Thankfully Radio NZ could only get people with a brain to talk to them. People who refused to turn walking past a man in the street into a deep suspicion that he was a walking time-bomb.
On hunting - Pigs, goats, possum, rabbits and deer are a major menace in New Zealand. If anyone wants to see the damage caused by these pests they can take a walk in any NZ forest, or bush, or farm. Sure some hunters are a bit casual but most of the ones I meet are not sadists. Many rely on hunting to feed themselves, their families and dogs. Without hunting our property would be totally overrun. And four of the above five animals taste mighty good (I refuse to eat possum).
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I know I made a joke about it earlier but.
The police had "intelligence" that this guy had a pot plant. Did they not have "intelligence" that he also had Guns, ammunition and explosives? and that he may not be the "full quid"?. I think this is the more important part of the problem and should be addressed by any inquiry.
It is not uncommon, we are told, that drug busts often uncover arms stashes and this gut was known to the police. This was a case of sending lambs to the slaughter but apparently that is ok. -
this gut was known to the police.
Ok, I know he was big but that was a typo. ;-)
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And four of the above five animals taste mighty good (I refuse to eat possum).
Why? It's just as tasty as the other four.
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Russ B:
No to mention that it would also provoke justifiable public outrage if they did so.
Also, if the crims knew this was routine police practice, they'd probably trade in their Glocks and Brownings for Mac10's and Uzis.
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Overreaction would've been following through on some of the more nutjob-like TBR caller suggestions. My favourite was dropping heavy things on the house from a helicopter, to crush it and the man within.
Ah yes, the Wile E Coyote approach to armed conflict resolution.
As for the LAVs opening fire - you'd know about it if they did. I think a 25mm cannon has a certain sound to it. I believe the police have said the ONLY thing they fired when retrieving the officer's body was tear gas? Don't take that as 100% though.
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