Hard News: Vision and dumbassery
532 Responses
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Greg Dawson, in reply to
I don’t know, I’m no lawyer. anyway, have a go
Oh, neither am I, and tbh why bother when it'll all be over-ridden by some unknown clause in the TPPA anyway?
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mark taslov, in reply to
Oh, neither am I, and tbh why bother when it’ll all be over-ridden by some unknown clause in the TPPA anyway?
If the country lies down like a soggy rights reneging dishcloth as it clearly seems to have done since I left, then quite possibly yes. defo buddy.
Thanks for your questions Greg, I wish there was more discussion going on about it, hoping to stir some pots so someone can give me a good bitch slap.
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Based on an admittedly skewed sample of legal bloggers in NZ, I don't think it's the legal minds that we lack. Instead it's that the politicians keep treating expert advice like the car keys, and giving it to the pilot.
Hopefully it doesn't just come down to NZ for the TPPA, and a couple of other key countries decide it's not for them (like say, Japan). That might give our leaders the spine to follow suit, since they don't seem to be interesting in trying anything new that doesn't involve strip mining public assets and slashing welfare.
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mark taslov, in reply to
Yes, true, no lack of legal minds in New Zealand, actually with due respect to Helen Clark, I'd assumed she was a lawyer, checking now I see she's not so I should rein that in.
tangentially I have received three Adware Adinstaller.Astomenda attacks in the last 5 minutes.
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And sorry [correction] I mistitled “Section 16” above, it was amended as “Section 15” last year; (2)(b) still applies. The only other section I can find “private communications” mentioned is Section 15B”:
“15B Involvement of Commissioner of Security Warrants
“(1) An application for, and issue of, an interception warrant or access authorisation under section 15A must be made jointly to, and issued jointly by, the Minister and the Commissioner of Security Warrants if anything that may be done under the warrant or authorisation is for the purpose of intercepting the private communications of a New Zealand citizen or permanent resident of New Zealand under—
Again, maybe no qualifier at all is necessary for both 15 and 15b, simply “…intercepting the_communications of a New Zealander…” covers all that. And perhaps completely removing the interpretation of “private communications” from the legislation so that nothing can be collected without a warrant – shifting the focus to foreign intelligence gathering as David Cunliffe mentioned in the 3rd leaders debate……ah ideals….
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2013/0109/13.0/whole.html#DLM5177706
Graeme?
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mark taslov, in reply to
nothing can be collected without a warrant
“nothing” meaning: absolutely no communication, "private" or otherwise.
“collected” meaning: intercepted* by the GCSB.
*needs a prescribed interpretation
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but anyway
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Oh, neither am I, and tbh why bother when it’ll all be over-ridden by some unknown clause in the TPPA anyway?
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Greg Dawson, in reply to
Because profit is more important than the clean water that a nation depends on. Sounds familiar.
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Protest scuppers John Key's mall visit
A visit by the Prime Minister to a mall in Rotorua had to be abandoned abruptly this morning because of an Internet Mana protest.
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Yeah, you’re right Greg, thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I’ve spoken to a lawyer, who also referred me to the New Zealand Law Society’s report. He had a read through what I wrote and told me it was the tip of the iceberg and basically spun off the same kind of line as Michael Hadyn had that you just need to embrace it because Government surveillance of NZ citizenry has been going on for ages, mass surveillance for over a decade, and that anyone with any gumption already knows this to be true. He dismissed XKeyscore as a glorified product launch for cyber security geeks, and maintained that there was no way of dismantling the apparatus and the only way to bybass it would be to invent your own technology or get Amish. Brunt of it was that they got everyone’s number long ago, all six lines of it, and they’re for the most part quite entertained, so get with the program* it's the least of your worries.
He also said the people need to flush out any Anti-conspiracy theorists=luddites, they are deluded, dangerous, technologically challenged and not to be trusted.
*I'm very serious about this.
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
PARTY VOTE Bad water!
Because profit is more important than the clean water that a nation depends on. Sounds familiar.
Subliminal truth in the placement of a sticker...
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Angela Hart, in reply to
told me it was the tip of the iceberg and basically spun off the same kind of line as Michael Hadyn had that you just need to embrace it because Government surveillance of NZ citizenry has been going on for ages, mass surveillance for over a decade,
It's only one view point. If it's the case, that still doesn't mean that we have to accept it, this is still our country- isn't it?
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
He had a read through what I wrote and told me it was the tip of the iceberg and basically spun off the same kind of line as Michael Hadyn had that you just need to embrace it because Government surveillance of NZ citizenry has been going on for ages, mass surveillance for over a decade, and that anyone with any gumption already knows this to be true
Which is perfectly true, up to a point but not as far as some people seem determined to push it. There is such a thing as keeping the State in its place, and I would strenuously argue that place is reading my mail only under extreme, specific and strictly circumscribed conditions.
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mark taslov, in reply to
You could probably say that it's still the country the British negotiated the treaty for. Nothing changed dramatically this week or even last year beneath the hype, and I honestly believe that the only thing to fear is fear itself. Perhaps I drank the koolaid but following things vaguely I recognize a gradual liberal agenda worldwide, in terms of human rights. the only exception being the surveillance, but the most important thing about the surveillance is that we have the freedom to turn it off at any time in our homes, in our pockets (If you're particular take out the sim card?), it's invasive but benign. and so our loss of privacy can be more personally defined as our addiction to technology.
These machines, we love so much, that we could only dream of as children, they are not appendages. No one is standing in our homes. I guess It's just a case of accepting that the computer and the phone are nodes. If you want some privacy unplug your computer from the net, etc.
For me over here watching New Zealand this week has been a trip. Unfuckingprecedented. And now finally today I've gone over the edge, a bit like when Y2k never happened. Our IT education left a lot to be desired.
Privacy is a conditioned human response. Our cat 警长 licks his ass in front of me all the time. Little kids run around naked, Not an issue at all. In Hollywood movies the spy guys are always Doctor evils, but that's just a narrative. Our membership of the 5eyes alliance has kept New Zealand free from serious conflict since inception. People's lives are better materially. The problems New Zealand faces are still, despite everything, just first world problems. Which doesn't diminish the importance of the election. but hopefully does provide some weighted perspective.
On their website the NSA are very transparent about their agenda. The only potential impediment to the NSA/5eyes achieving their goals would be problematic politicians, but looking about the place. Just because it's 'John Key's country' doesn't mean he has everyone's best interests at heart. And just because he doesn't appear to have everyone's best interests at heart doesn't mean he doesn't have everyone's interests at heart. There is a long game here, being played beneath the short game of democratic politics.
the assumption that the external force, 'the foreigner', has motives worse than our own """""""""""""indigenous"""""""""" motives, ignores the rich and varied history of AotearoaNZ.
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mark taslov, in reply to
Which is perfectly true, up to a point but not as far as some people seem determined to push it. There is such a thing as keeping the State in its place, and I would strenuously argue that place is reading my mail only under extreme, specific and strictly circumscribed conditions. .
Exactly Craig, and yet even if some irresponsible operative at the NSA or the GCSB did take a fondness to your acerbic sweetness, he may not be alone, there may also be a guy at Google as well as a hacker from Boardman Oregon, all digging your prose, and you know that you’re taking that risk by sending an email. That's human nature. 1000 years ago it may have been man on donkey who steamed open the scroll for a gander. Mainly we know that there’s nothing we can do to rewind the progress that brought us here. Resistance just makes a mess:
In April 2008 three Ploughshares Aotearoa or Anzac Ploughshares activists breached three security fences to enter the base and then used a sickle to deflate the kevlar covering over one of the two satellite dishes.Prime Minister Helen Clark condemned the attack on the spy base as a “senseless act of criminal vandalism”. They waited there until they were arrested and charged with intentional damage and unlawful entry. They were tried in March 2010 where they readily admitted their actions in court but defended it as a “claim of right” to save human lives. The jury agreed and the three activists were acquitted on all charges. One of the protesters said “we broke a law to protect plastic to uphold a law to protect human life."
I think Helen Clark has the money quote there.
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nzlemming, in reply to
Our membership of the 5eyes alliance has kept New Zealand free from serious conflict since inception.
I'd dispute that. We went to Korea, we went to Vietnam, we went to Afghanistan, we've had peacekeepers in all the major trouble spots. What we've had to our advantage is being in the arse-end of anywhere and small population which has largely kept actual terrorism out (Rainbow Warrior aside). And we're generally non-strategic - except in terms of signals intelligence. We're ideally placed to intercept quite a large proportion of satellite traffic and that's the only reason we're part of the 5Eyes programme. If anything 5Eyes makes us more of a target because of the access it provides to the network (think Isreali passport forgers).
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the only thing to fear is fear itself.
Taking a well worn phrase and applying it to any context robs it of its vitality and meaning. You should find out the context and circumstances in which it was said
I think Helen Clark has the money quote there.
Your opinion only
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mark taslov, in reply to
As a pacifist with an ideal vision of New Zealand as an independent nation I’d dispute myself there to. I’m trying to placate people, Some of the commentators on Toby Manhire’s masterpiece appear incredibly distraught. But relative to the first and second world war our losses have been marginal. Has New Zealand ever been Autonomous? Who is our official Head of State? We dreamt of coming to these distant shore to escape the empire but here we are in a country that was "founded" by the empire, and not without much ado.
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mark taslov, in reply to
Andin, look I know the context of the phrase, and if anyone he *may* even have been one of the last hopes of resisting this. But I’m not an ostrich, China has had this kind of technology and been engaging in this kind of mass surveillance since before I arrived here in 2003. It’s just the way things went. They weren't world tech leaders.
My opinion of course, because it’s futile to resist the vast industrial military complex. It’s futile to reap the benefits of all this wonderful technology while maintaining belief that you can resist those who developed this technology from using it for exactly the ends it was designed. Once you come to grips with just how much info is being gathered it stops being about you anymore. and become a fact of life, life having a link to the public library in your living room. But most importantly, I’m not worried about being spied on because I know I’m not that important, bank my emails as you do.
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Katharine Moody, in reply to
Mainly we know that there’s nothing we can do to rewind the progress that brought us here.
The problem as I see it is that if the "we" that are here breathing today don't somehow try and rewind what you refer to as "progress" (i.e., indiscriminate data collection, the vast military-industrial complex, climate change, nuclear proliferation, the Type II diabetes epidemic, growing inequality and all else that "progress" has brought us) then it will be another generation not yet born that must suffer the full effect.
Surely resistance to what is morally wrong can never be futile.
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Sacha, in reply to
sheltered workshop
asshole
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mark taslov, in reply to
Sorry, to be clear about that, by progress, I’m referring to technology; cellphones, the net, you can redefine your relationship to it. Most importantly New Zealand and these other 4 nations are allies, and therefore terms can be negotiated to an extent, as David Lange did so beautifully on March 1st 1985. And as New Zealand has been doing with diminishing returns for many decades.
A poignant question to ask yourself is do you believe that humans are essentially good or evil?
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mark taslov, in reply to
Katharine, though I don’t agree with everything in them by a big stretch I think these articles may offer some perspective. They are written by David Wong (Jason Pargin), author of John Dies at the End. He’s in the US where unlike our own John, Obama did come right out and admitted to this:
The 6 Weirdest Things We’ve Learned Since 9/11
7 Reasons the World Looks Worse Than It Really Is
One last thing, I do feel safer living in China than I ever did in New Zealand. But the biggest difference between the surveillance in these cases is that in China I know where I stand, while there, you’re stuck in limbo until someone in a position of power comes clean. Also here I’m an expat and China remains weary of diplomatic complications, though I’m regularly censored and an in no doubt the massiveness of it.
I’m sure many NZers still don’t believe the Moment of Truth, as for myself, all things considered, I’m stupefied by what I’ve observed this week.
#toomuchinfo -
Bart Janssen, in reply to
asshole
Agreed. While the rest of it was annoying, that and the diatribe immediately prior was simply nasty.
And also a salutary lesson in just how we are from where we want to be in this country. The lack of empathy, the ease with which pain is caused in others for his (assuming here) own entertainment. It's all part of a larger picture that defines the things we need to change to become a genuinely caring and responsible country.
You can have fun without trying to hurt others and despite the trolls under the bridges we can get there.
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