Hard News: Tragedy into Crisis?
232 Responses
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A S,
Fair enough, Russell. It is a somewhat sweeping generalisation. Kind of similar to the sweeping generalisations that the Police did the right thing not to go in earlier.
As I asked above, is the problem about the expectation that Police should have done more in this case? The key board commando crack annoyed me somewhat, hence my somewhat sarky reply.
I do believe the Police should have done more in this case. I've defended them previously on PAS when few others would, but in this case, I think time will prove that all sorts of things should have been done better than they were.
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I presume that's the liquor industry's definition of "moderate".
And my definition of a quiet post-pub-quiz cocktail on a Tuesday night. Damn, is it still only 3 o'clock?
e.g. serving spirits by the tray could constitute a breach of the licence by promoting irresponsible drinking.
Those laws have been varying in their effects and enforcement for some time. At one stage you could order a jug of Margarita or Pimms #1 or G&T; then it was banned for "promoting irresponsible drinking"; now you can again. I haven't tried here, but I don't suppose you can buy spirits by the bottle hear like you can in the UK?
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Was is policy? Cock-up? Communication failure?
I'll go with policy. The situation was shots fired. At that point, firearms become a necessity for all involved. At roughly the same time as the Manurewa shooting there was an armed incident in Otahuhu, and the nearest cars with firearms were in attendance or responding. A senior non-com had to respond from the Otahuhu incident to Manurewa, according to a comment by the Police in the Herald last week. That's a significant reason for the delay. Normally police firearms are readily available in South Auckland during the night.
For all the talk about how many calls were being made to say that the offenders had departed, how many people here are familiar with the inaccuracy of human reports of stressful circumstances? Untrained people lack perspective under pressure. They exaggerate, because they lack any kind of yard-stick to apply to give a realistic account of a situation. I've heard quite minor (based on my FS experience, having attended dozens of car crashes that required extrication of trapped persons) car crashes described as "huge" or "terrible" by inexperienced persons. They don't know enough to make a dispassionate judgement, so they call it how they see it. Usually all involved in such crashes walk away, mostly completely uninjured.
When lives are at stake, it is risky to accept the word of untrained people. They may be correct, but they also may not be. If my life is on the line, I'll want the best information possible. In a situation such as this, that will be when a police officer confirms that the scene is secure.If an off-duty cop had been in the store, called 111 and identified themselves and stated that the scene was secure, and still the police had waited, then I'd be asking some hard questions. In the absence of any such scenario, though, I cannot fault the police for their actions.
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I haven't tried here, but I don't suppose you can buy spirits by the bottle hear like you can in the UK?
The one-litre vodka bottles on top of my bookshelf would seem to suggest you can. ;) The difference is that in the UK you can buy them in supermarkets (that gave me a bit of a shock when I saw it), whereas here you can only get them in liquor stores.
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And meanwhile a man lay bleeding to death. Honestly, I do expect more from our Police. I expect them to show common sense and be able to assess a situation quickly.
Fair enough, Nick, but I also think it's fair enough to suggest that it's all fucking nice for Michael Laws to do his usual troglodyte homunculus routine from the comfort of a well-padded studio in Wanganui well after the fact. He mightn't be quite such a butch bitch if he was on the ground at the time.
And, meanwhile, anyone remember when Mr. Laws airily (and vilely dismissed the treatment of Louise Nicholas as 'sensual excesses' in his Sunday Star Times column? Or the circumstances of his resignation from Parliament? Someone should send this creep's moral high horse to the nearest glue factory. Stat.
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If an off-duty cop had been in the store, called 111 and identified themselves and stated that the scene was secure, and still the police had waited, then I'd be asking some hard questions. In the absence of any such scenario, though, I cannot fault the police for their actions.
Matthew, it seems a shame that an informed perspective such as yours did not form part of the New Zealand Herald editorial on the matter, headlined, with the Herald's customary pompous assurance, Saving lives outranks bureaucracy.
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I'll go with policy. The situation was ....
Now if you had Greg O'connor's job,I know I'd accept that explanation.I am sure we all want the cops to act faster, but I think you tell it like it really is Matthew, but as an aside, I thought the police have their vests now?
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I thought the police have their vests now?
Stab vests, yes. Good against knives and screwdrivers, not so flash in the event of being shot at.
Ballistic vests are carried in cars that have firearms, but aren't routinely worn due to their bulk and impingement on movement. -
thought the police have their vests now
I don't know if those are bullet proof.
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Sofie Bribiesca:
There seems to be a common misconception that the vests now routinely worn by police are bullet proof. I believe they are, in fact, stab proof only.
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"I haven't tried here, but I don't suppose you can buy spirits by the bottle hear like you can in the UK?"
The one-litre vodka bottles on top of my bookshelf would seem to suggest you can.
I mean in the bars, rather than in off-licenses. I've known people to order bottles of Cognac after dinner at restaurants (there was a whole wall of signed napkins from people who'd splashed out on bottles of Louis XIII at Il Casino), but I haven't tried at a pub. Maybe I'll try it tonight: "Barkeep, a bottle of tequila and two glasses, please!"
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If Singh was a Cop do you really think they would have waited 30 minutes?
Um, yes. Just ask DC Duncan Taylor's widow.
Tell them he had a knife and they'll come busting in.
At which point one or more unsuspecting cops will wind up dead and you'll still be confronted with an armed offender, but now it'll be one with nothing to lose. And hopefully if you survive you'll wind up in jail too, because you'll deserve to.
Granted there's valid public interest in why it took them as long as it did to decide that the scene could be entered, but honestly, get a little perspective. Why's your life any more valuable than the next guy's, even if the next guy happens to be in uniform?
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What I think Tom means is that some bars overseas will sell you a whole bottle of vodka or whatever, which you write your name on and keep behind the bar between visits (unless one is a complete dipso or in a big team, in which case it gets guzzled in one night).
The Farm in Verbier does this, and it didn't turn Fergie into an alcoholic.
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the New Zealand Herald editorial on the matter
Says it all. The Herald loves ragging on the cops. Their collective understanding of policing appears to be somewhere between very little and not much, but they're quire happy to pontificate as though every journalist and editor has spent decades on the beat.
On another forum, when someone suggested that as a taxpayer I should expect the police to come charging to my rescue, I responded that I prefer that my tax dollars go to their salaries and pensions, not their department funerals. I see no reason to change that view.
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Craig said:
And, meanwhile, anyone remember when Mr. Laws airily (and vilely dismissed the treatment of Louise Nicholas as 'sensual excesses' in his Sunday Star Times column? Or the circumstances of his resignation from Parliament? Someone should send this creep's moral high horse to the nearest glue factory. Stat.
Oh yes please!
Laws is such a sanctimonious prat, you'd be forgiven for thinking he was the pillar of morality yet his parliamentary career was founded on duplicity (floundered on it too).
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They could always send the Army into South Auckland, complete with LAVs and helicopters. They'd be able to engage any miscreants and return fire, from the safety of the LAV if neccesary.
Of course they'd probably kill several innocent bystanders and start a few riots, but hey, can't make an omalette. (or spell one, for that matter)
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Just ask DC Duncan Taylor's widow.
That's a very good point, actually. I'd forgotten about that incident. That's a perfect example of just why the police have the procedures they do and follow them so rigidly. There's uniformed blood been shed, and well inside living memory, courtesy of a person with a gun. Just as fire fighters in this country will never look at a cool store the same way again, the police will always treat with great caution the possibility of firearms being present at an incident to which they've responded.
Granted there's valid public interest in why it took them as long as it did to decide that the scene could be entered
From the time that firearms became available to the time that the ambulance officers were permitted to enter the scene was very brief. That says that the delay was largely due to the other armed incident in progress at the time the call came in, rather than general slowness to get in and check the scene once policy dictated that entry could be made.
Why's your life any more valuable than the next guy's, even if the next guy happens to be in uniform?
Seemingly precisely because he's in uniform. There seems to be a belief, as Kerre Woodham described, that putting on the blue shirt makes a police officer less worthy of continued existence than those they serve.
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Ballistic vests are carried in cars that have firearms, but aren't routinely worn due to their bulk and impingement on movement.
Ta. Next question, Why aren't all cars carrying firearms if some are?
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A S,
On another forum, when someone suggested that as a taxpayer I should expect the police to come charging to my rescue, I responded that I prefer that my tax dollars go to their salaries and pensions, not their department funerals. I see no reason to change that view.
Fine. If the police aren't going to come to peoples rescue, could they do the populace the courtesy of admitting that, and tell them they're on their own? At least that way people would have an idea of what to expect...
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Why aren't all cars carrying firearms if some are?
Because best practice is to restrict firearms use to a specially trained and selected cadre with the skills for such situations.
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I mean in the bars, rather than in off-licenses
I've never tried buying whole bottles of spirits in bars, but the other half says it's "bloody expensive, but possible", so I guess you can.
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Why aren't all cars carrying firearms if some are?
Good question. Partly it's because we do still live under the illusion that we've an unarmed police force, I suspect. Sergeants' cars (the station wagons) all have an arsenal in the boot, and they're the usual source of firearms at an incident. All marked cars (dunno about unmarked ones) have a lock-box at the front passenger's feet, which can accommodate a couple of pistols and ammunition. Mostly they're empty, but in South Auckland the night patrols often have a "friend" with them - in the box, not on their hip.
In reality, most police officers in most parts of the country don't need to have a firearm immediately available. That South Auckland night patrols frequently carry is a reflection of what that area has become, more than indicative of wider society. However, even they don't take their pistols every time they exit the car. Things haven't quite reached that stage.
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Because best practice is to restrict firearms use to a specially trained and selected cadre with the skills for such situations.
That's not how it works here, though. All police officers are trained (woefully. They wouldn't qualify to keep a private pistol licence on their current level of training) how to handle firearms. We're not the UK, where only selected officers get firearms training. To be sure the AOS are trained far better than the average plod, but they're not the only cops who have access to firearms where required.
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A S,
Because best practice is to restrict firearms use to a specially trained and selected cadre with the skills for such situations.
I'd always been told all sworn officers, who were current (had done training) could draw firearms. The decison to approve use of firearms rests with shift supervisor.
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If the police aren't going to come to peoples rescue, could they do the populace the courtesy of admitting that, and tell them they're on their own?
Should the Fire Service tell people that if they happen to crash into a power pole out in the wops, they're on their own potentially for an hour? Maybe the various ambulance services should tell people that if they get shot they're on their own? Coz there's no ambo in existence who's going to attend to a person who's been shot in a robbery if the cops are telling them not to go in.
You're expressing precisely the view that Kerre described. Somehow people in uniform are lesser beings than you, less worthy of life, with a subordinate right to go home at the end of the working day just because they've got a uniform on and a duty to help the public.
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