"I don't want anyone trying to twist the bloody tongue – I kick your bloody arse," Low threatened. "If you make me angry, make it your mission to twist my words I don't care if you TV1 or TV3 what I want is the facts."

Um, DeepRed, could I be…

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport

Mayor Shocked at Suggestion of Triad Security

He also seems to be using a 'lack' of english to obsfucate his privious statements. Given the emotion they were delivered with I have no doubt what he ment at the time.

I'm still sus on…

Low says he will consider talks with police, but thinks the current groups set up by police are not working. He wanted to ensure his message was not skewed even to the extent of issuing 3 News reporter Michael Morrah with…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singapore

He then left Singapore before it became prosperous.

Faark, I saw TV3 interview Mr Low & they had the good grace to show him threaten the reporter.

But I was fascinated to hear that Low comes from Singapore — not, as I understand, a nation that is notably friendly towards criminal gangs or those who consort with them.

And…

I'ld like to know Mr Lows connection to (or distance from) triads.

Watch this space I see a crime watch special coming some time soon.

I'm really pleased the security industry are…

In the long run, the thin blue line needs a stronger shade of yellow and sepia. Apparently they've been trying to recruit from the Asian community for a while now, but haven't had enough responses.

"the AAG would consider hiring local Triads to protect his people from violent attacks"

I heard that on national radio today. I had to check to see if I hadn't somehow switched from national to some sort of comedy station.

You can imagine the triad's response. "Wait, we already run…

"the AAG would consider hiring local Triads to protect his people from violent attacks"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10520221

I'm hoping that everybody pulls their heads in (yellow, sepia, brown and white alike). But I'm uncomfortably inclined to believe that Manukau could be one fuse away from a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_riots_of_1992|social…

Is this starting to look like firefighters committing arson?

I don't know, but it's going to be tears before bedtime when someone snatches the handbag of a rather irritable Asian woman who already knows how to kick arse, thank you kindly. :) Good Lord, I actually think every woman should…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10519882

Its methods include snatching handbags from unsuspecting restaurant-goers, then watching their victims' reactions before advising them on how to protect themselves.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10517831

I can see where they're coming from, but how long will it be before someone does a Bernhard Goetz?

That you were aware of the Otahuhu incident, and the need for a…

So they're promoting themselves over the expressed wishes of the victims family.

I kind of want to see them lay the complaint now and see what happens. I expect a judge will give them a bit of a dressing down over it.

Holy Shit, I was joking when I said maybe's there's 2 ! There's 14, 6 with the same name !

M Poole

No there are several reports (I won't bother linking to them all) that mention the police waiting to verify where the offender was with no mention of…

Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:35:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Verpal Singh <>
Subject: [AEN] In continuation of the small note....
To: AEN <>

This morning's story in NZ Herald seems to have created the impression that the decision to complain against the police is of the "whole Sikh…

here are the links to this week's Media7

Part 2 of the podcast version refuses to work for me. If I wget it, I get a zero-byte file. The other three parts work fine.

TVNZ ondemand

Windows Media clips of the show.

[[feed://tvnz.co.nz/Media7PodcastMP4|The podcast…

I look forward to ... any inquiry/review of Police SOP

The ultimate tragedy would be if all the busy-bodying and criticism of the police response resulted in a change of SOP that sent unarmed officers into a situation that lead to them being shot to death.
I fully support the…

The guy was able to walk around and go to the toilet after he was shot, it's pretty clear the end result should have been better.

That kind of made me think the opposite. We're talking about some minutes' gap between assembly and entry, and the poor man died hours…

This from monday morning..

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516568

The guy was able to walk around and go to the toilet after he was shot, it's pretty clear the end result should have been better

DeepRed

When was that posted ?

It was postmarked Tuesday night.

When was that posted ?

What I was trying to point out was that it appears as though the Sikh Society has done a U turn from their initial stance of not lodging a formal complaint against the police and are now lodging a complaint at the insistence of…

http://stuff.co.nz/707339a17217.html

Funny and scary both at once, very Spy vs Spy. David Lange's Oxford Union speech is still timely.

Next week Media7 had best have representatives from the Small Retaillers association and the liquor industry on to ask what PR is required to point out the lack of causation between alcohol and crime.

You're suggesting there isn't a link between alcohol and crime?

The last shooting death of a police officer was DC Taylor 2002.

I mentioned that case to Graham Bell in this week's Media7 (I'll post the links tomorrow). He noted that Taylor actually knew the shooter.

Unsaid: that that might have been what encouraged DC Taylor to think he could…

Here's a post from the NZ Sikh Society's Verpal Singh on AEN

That's a mature and measured reaction. Not letting any police failures off the hook, but staying focused on the criminal.

And it looks like the Sikhs are quite as "classy" as previously indicated in this thread and have decided to make a complaint ?

Here's a post from the NZ Sikh Society's Verpal Singh on AEN:

From: Verpal Singh <>
Subject: [AEN] Small note
To: AEN <>

Through the…

Arms race, anyone?

The criminal element in this country are under no illusions as to the availability of firearms to the police. The equipment available is well-known, given that the media reports every potential change to the armoury quite thoroughly.
An arms race might begin if the police were routinely…

Actually there were you or just making it up as you go along ?

Nothing to do with wanting certainty about where the perpetrator is

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10517192

The police have said themselves they had to establish where the gunmen were before they entered the scene so nobody else's life…

I understand the theory behind the Police and Ambo's waiting at the "safe point" but at what point do they decide it's safe to enter the scene ?

Once they feel that they can deal adequately with the situation. Nothing to do with wanting certainty about where the perpetrator is,…

It really is about time the media stopped paying for this predictable, knee-jerk bigotry from "commentators" from whom – and about whom – we've heard more than enough.

There's people who consistently write better researched and more challenging stuff here on PA, and even over at Kiwiblog and…

Michael Laws might have declared on Sunday that "South Auckland is the badlands of New Zealand … not a place that you choose to live. It is a place that you end up..."

What, like you "end up" in Wanganui after getting up to your mascared eyes in the s**t…

a) such a period of time has elapsed that the perpetrators have probably left the sceen by now ?

or

b) a…

aomi Watts and Tim Roth star as a picture perfect couple on a lakeside vacation with their son. Their idyllic life is shattered when a pair of polite…

aomi Watts and Tim Roth star as a picture perfect couple on a lakeside vacation with their son. Their idyllic life is shattered when a pair of polite…

]]> Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:15:35 +1200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-tragedy-into-crisis/?p=54930#post54930 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-tragedy-into-crisis/?p=54930#post54930

I'm sorry, isn't not relying on the police exactly the point you've been trying to convince me of for the last day or two?

No! I'm trying to convince you not to expect immediate rescue, not that they won't come at all. Two completely different states of affairs.
In one,…

But if you're saying people shouldn't rely on the police, then what are you advocating?

I'm sorry, isn't not relying on the police exactly the point you've been trying to convince me of for the last day or two?

I'm a bit lost because I'm not advocating anything, whether anyone…

1894 was the year of the Great Reduction in liquor licencing, one Hotel in Christchurch was denied a licence for being merely a place of drinking, shock & horror.

Changes to…

Hi Kerre

I just wanted to thank you for your column…

Whether it's allowed under police policy or not, I'm sure a fair few rural police officers would have a shotgun or other weapon in their vehicle – either a police one or a personal one. As much use for dealing with livestock, animals etc, as any risk from an armed…

In the wops, where it might be two hours to the nearest town of any importance and the AOS comes from somewhere that's further away still, the balance will be a little different but still heavily tilted.

Whether it's allowed under police policy or not, I'm sure a fair few…

the Police were right to wait until they were certain he'd left

That's not why they waited. They waited until they had firearms, in case he hadn't left. Your misrepresentation of the circumstances does nothing to aid your argument.
Their concern was not so great that they wouldn't risk confronting…

is there a particular reason why I shouldn't be somewhat curious about why the police would advocate reliance on them in the first place.
...
And no, Shep, I'm not advocating some sort of wild west, so you can relax.

But if you're saying people shouldn't rely on the police,…

What 3410 just said

I couldn't agree more, but this thread has RSI so I shall move on to something else. But in closing:

What Kyle just said

Yes, I saw a few seconds of CCTV on TV too, but what does that really tell us? That the killer was a psycho…

Surely the point is that the safety of attending officers must be balanced against the safety of the victims of the situation.

Oh, of course. But the scales are very heavily tilted toward the safety of the officers. In a big-city environment, where firearms-equipped cars aren't too far away and…

Actually, before I was somewhat incredulous that it was somehow ok…

Isn't it a bit of a cynical position to take on the part of the police?

The concept that people mustn't take the law into their own hands, and protecting people from crime is the role of the police is all well and good, but if in reality that protection…

No one wants the Police to blunder in without ascertaining the risk to themselves and others. The other side of the coin is that people shouldn't bleed to…

Do any critics of the cops action here have a 1st Aid Cert?

It would appear not. Or if they do, they slept through the introductory remarks by the instructor, and significant repetitions throughout the course, about how their safety is paramount.

I once saw a very extended list of…

We all got this story, but we don't get to see the footage ourselves, so we take the word of the media/Police.

I thought I saw the CCTV footage on TV of this incident. Yes, TV3 showed stills at least.

And the Herald is clearly telling their story from the footage,…

The concept that people mustn't take the law into their own hands, and protecting people from crime is the role of the police is all well and good, but if in reality that protection has quite a few riders attached to it, and in there is no guarantee of any…

I'm not talking about arming the civilian population.

I'm not talking about a more aggressive role for the police, as far as I can see they are doing a fine job of that themselves (when it suits them), and I'm not talking about…

Do any critics of the cops action here have a 1st Aid Cert?

BTW: I'm not suggesting Chris Comesky is slimey but I'm wondering if you are.

I used his name because he's Xue's lawyer. It wasn't meant to imply anything, it was simply using a name because one could be used in context.

It's worth noting that the ambulance service was making no apologies for the wait. They didn't want their people dead either.

Why is it that nobody's criticising them for this, I wonder? I'd love to see the court battle between an ambulance officer who ignored a cop's order to stay…

Scott Watson was found guilty

Oh.My.Gawd.

Do NOT get me started!

And there's the other staple: slimey lawyers* setting the guilty free via loopholes....

Don't worry, Nick, all this political correctness gone mad is going to be done and dusted before you know it. Isn't it a delicious irony that we love to sneer at the evil Amerikkkans, but while the…

That’s all it is and the natianals will be hard at it.

NZ Native, you can dismiss this as partisan special pleading if you like (though I think my record would suggest that blind hackery isn't one of my character flaws), but it would have been pragmatically smarter for Key…

But seperate to that I stand by…

Now maybe my memory is faulty but can anyone else recall in NZ a case where liquor or small store robbers waited after the robbery to have a shoot out with police ?

I'm not sure whether police had this information, but my understanding was that the robber got the…

The key thing is, positive information, where is the gunman now? That the gunman wasn't in the shop front didn't mean he wasn't still around.
It's shitty, but those stab proof vests aren't bullet…

and I think I’m getting an understanding that our police have a system where it is better for 100 civilians to die than for a policeman to cop it

What happened was awful. But for goodness sake, the police didn't shoot the guy. And missing from all the reports is…

I don't know many who would have assumed they shouldn't expect help, and I'd previously dismissed the few I knew who did think that way as cranks with issues.

I guess in my case, I don't expect immediate help from the emergency services. I understand that there are limited resources,…

As for AP, or anyone else who wants royalties by the word, they can kiss my arse.

I didn't know you were so keen on corporate rim-jobs, Idiot. :) But less snarkily, there's something else about 'fair use': I don't know any bloggers that pull quotes without attirbution and linkage.…

Personally I can't say that I was ever under the impression that emergency services would come to my rescue immediately, no matter what the situation.

And I've never felt the need for a public service announcement to confirm that, it just seemed like common sense to me.

Does that put…

And if the police had just opened up the boot because it seemed like a good idea, nothing they found in the car would be admissible in the up-coming trial. Nothing, nadda, zilch.

Again, you're confusing American cop show plotlines with reality...

They have procedures around searches for a reason,…

Should the general public have an expectation that the Police will help them in an emergency, or should the general population actually be quite clear that in an emergency they are on their own and that they should not expect any help until the risk is deemed acceptable?

If the…

They ring for assitance and the police…

Yip – it's shameless.

Had Royd Kennedy left Shirley Young to burn to death under the tanker at Manukau, no fire fighter would've questioned that judgement call.

These high-profile cases, where an emergency services worker puts his life at risk and does something heroic to save the life of another, do you suppose we've…

Its called Post traumatic stress disorder.

I'd actually call it a particularly shabby appeal to the authority of 'victimhood' that I'm well and truly over. A couple of weeks ago, my PAR piece was scornful of the Sensible Sentencing Trust parading around Lesley Elliott in a sledgehammer attempt to lever…

From the perspective of the poor sod whose been shot (and not to detract from what you've said), leaving him until it is safer to enter could be seen as pretty callous from his perspective, couldn't it?

Oh, of course. As I've said, it sucks that such choices are necessary.…

From the perspective of the poor sod whose been shot (and not to detract from what you've said), leaving him until it is safer to enter could be seen as pretty callous from his perspective, couldn't it?

As I said, different perspectives.

I thought the callous part was not going to the assistance of someone who got shot.

Callous on whose part? The ambulance officers who obeyed their protocols, and doubtless the orders of the police officer-in-charge, and waited at the SFP until given the all-clear? Or the police who, mindful of…

But the words from Leigh Kennaway, miles upthread,…

and although I'm somewhat horrified, at least I have a fairly good idea of where I stand if I'm ever unfortunate enough to need help and I will adjust my expectations accordingly.

Sorry to burst your bubble so brutally. Your previous perspective on the importance of your life in an…

I'm a bit gob-smacked by it, but maybe I'm just naive.

Go and take a first aid course. If you have, you didn't really think that they were joking about taking care of oneself first, did you?

At least we've established that you're not actually as unbelievably callous as you…

"should the general population actually be quite clear that in an emergency they are on their own". You, not me. How else can that be read than that you don't think the emergency services should be allowed to account for their own safety before venturing in to provide aid?

How…

Don't you think that maybe this is something that people should be made aware of?

I'm a bit gob-smacked by it, but maybe I'm just naive.

I will even reiterate that if the consensus is that the public should not expect help when there is such a risk, fine.

Even if such a consensus is not reached, the emergency services won't change their modus operandi. They will continue to look out for their own safety above…

Should the general public have an expectation that the Police will help them in an emergency, or should the general population actually be quite clear that in an emergency they are on their own and that they should not expect any help until the risk is deemed acceptable?

The latter.…

I haven't advocated suicide by anyone. I suggest you try to refrain from ascribing your interpretation of something to what someone else has said.

I will restate the question I asked above:

Should the general population be quite clear that in an emergency they are on their own…

oh and on a side note, personally I think the response time to get the area cordoned off and the AOS on site was pretty bloody good......

Not AOS, just the nearest GD sergeant. Doubtless AOS were paged, but I've seen nothing to suggest that they actually went in and…

How about some bitching about copyright N*zis, that seems to be reliably good for some agreement. Today's contenders AP for charging bloggers $12.50 to quote 5 words

Admittedly I am a journalist so I might be a little biased here, but given that AP pays the cost of generating the…

In all emergency/rescue services in NZ (and I've been trained in several of them) the first thing you are ever taught to do in ALL situations is…

Yes I can

No, you can't. If you're going to criticise them for waiting, you'd have to commend them for rushing in and getting shot if that was how it went down.

No I suggested that a person there e.g. the family member that was still in the shop not…

Also Matthew, Xues car should have been seized and removed from the street at the same time as the searching of house,

For whatever reason, it took them as long as it did to work out that it was his car. Slack police work on their part, not running the…

Can't have it both ways, people

Yes I can

No, you can't. If you're going to criticise them for waiting, you'd have to commend them for rushing in and getting shot if that was how it went down. Otherwise you're demanding that the police exercise perfect judgement in every situation,…

past Xues car in our street with his wife in the boot while the cop was on duty beside it and many onlookers in the street were suggesting the boot might be better than digging up the garden.

And if the police had just opened up the boot because it…

If you are, I'll find out exactly which brigade it was and you can go there on a Monday night and tell them that they're a bunch of cowards. I'd love to know their reaction.

Why don't we just have a dance battle to decide?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Vfsk1TFFA

Maybe we should all talk about the Rugby, I think we can all agree we won that!

How about some bitching about copyright N*zis, that seems to be reliably good for some agreement. Today's contenders AP for charging bloggers $12.50 to quote 5 words, and Virgin for forbidding you to have an…

Ah yes, that perhaps explains why our soldiers are now only fit for peacekeeping duties. Or performing the Haka for Laura Bush in Afghanistan.

If they go to war, they've got guns. If they get shot, it's not because they were sent into a dangerous situation without a means to…

If I'm out in the wops and crash, I could reasonably have an idea that it might take some time for emergency services to get to me.

Then read my first post to this discussion. Where I talk about a real incident where the Fire Service waited an hour for…

Honestly, like the SUV thread I fear this one will not change anyone's opinion.

It's changed one of mine. I used to think that the guy in the gun shop who shot a hold-up artist was unjustified.

You're expressing precisely the view that Kerre described. Somehow people in uniform are lesser beings than you, less worthy of life, with a subordinate right to go home at the end of the working day just because they've got a uniform on and a duty to help the public.

Bollocks,…

I'd always been told all sworn officers, who were current (had done training) could draw firearms. The decison to approve use of firearms rests with shift supervisor.

Correct. A senior sergeant or detective sergeant can authorise carrying of firearms for a shift by their subordinates. In extreme circumstances, as was…

Short version: since liberalisation in 1989, there has been a massive explosion in outlets, but actual consumption has declined. And this decline in consumption has not been reflected in police violent crime…

Is this whole position of your's an intellectual exercise, or have you ever worked in a job where the consequences of a bad call or making a mistake can be life and death? I don't think you really grasp what your expectations entail to the people at the sharp…

If the police aren't going to come to peoples rescue, could they do the populace the courtesy of admitting that, and tell them they're on their own?

Should the Fire Service tell people that if they happen to crash into a power pole out in the wops, they're on their…

Because best practice is to restrict firearms use to a specially trained and selected cadre with the skills for such situations.

I'd always been told all sworn officers, who were current (had done training) could draw firearms. The decison to approve use of firearms rests with shift supervisor.

Because best practice is to restrict firearms use to a specially trained and selected cadre with the skills for such situations.

That's not how it works here, though. All police officers are trained (woefully. They wouldn't qualify to keep a private pistol licence on their current level of training) how…

Why aren't all cars carrying firearms if some are?

Good question. Partly it's because we do still live under the illusion that we've an unarmed police force, I suspect. Sergeants' cars (the station wagons) all have an arsenal in the boot, and they're the usual source of firearms at an…

I mean in the bars, rather than in off-licenses

I've never tried buying whole bottles of spirits in bars, but the other half says it's "bloody expensive, but possible", so I guess you can.

Why aren't all cars carrying firearms if some are?

Because best practice is to restrict firearms use to a specially trained and selected cadre with the skills for such situations.

On another forum, when someone suggested that as a taxpayer I should expect the police to come charging to my rescue, I responded that I prefer that my tax dollars go to their salaries and pensions, not their department funerals. I see no reason to change that view.

Fine. If…

Just ask DC Duncan Taylor's widow.

That's a very good point, actually. I'd forgotten about that incident. That's a perfect example of just why the police have the procedures they do and follow them so rigidly. There's uniformed blood been shed, and well inside living memory, courtesy of a person…

Of course they'd probably kill several innocent bystanders and start a few riots, but hey, can't make an…

And, meanwhile, anyone remember when Mr. Laws airily (and vilely dismissed the treatment of Louise Nicholas as 'sensual excesses' in his Sunday Star Times column? Or the circumstances of his resignation from Parliament? Someone should send this creep's moral high horse to the nearest glue factory. Stat.

Oh…

the New Zealand Herald editorial on the matter

Says it all. The Herald loves ragging on the cops. Their collective understanding of policing appears to be somewhere between very little and not much, but they're quire happy to pontificate as though every journalist and editor has spent decades on the…

If Singh was a Cop do you really think they would have waited 30 minutes?

Um, yes. Just ask DC Duncan Taylor's widow.

Tell them he had a knife and they'll come busting in.

At which point one or more unsuspecting cops will wind up dead and you'll still be…

"I haven't tried here, but I don't suppose you can buy spirits by the bottle hear like you can in the UK?"

The one-litre vodka bottles on top of my bookshelf would seem to suggest you can.

I mean in the bars, rather than in off-licenses. I've known people to…

There seems to be a common misconception that the vests now routinely worn by police are bullet proof. I believe they are, in fact, stab proof only.

thought the police have their vests now

I don't know if those are bullet proof.

I thought the police have their vests now?

Stab vests, yes. Good against knives and screwdrivers, not so flash in the event of being shot at.
Ballistic vests are carried in cars that have firearms, but aren't routinely worn due to their bulk and impingement on movement.

And meanwhile a man lay bleeding to death. Honestly, I do expect more from our Police. I expect them to show common sense and be able to assess a situation quickly.

Fair enough, Nick, but I also think it's fair enough to suggest that it's all fucking nice for Michael…

I haven't tried here, but I don't suppose you can buy spirits by the bottle hear like you can in the UK?

The one-litre vodka bottles on top of my bookshelf would seem to suggest you can. ;) The difference is that in the UK you can buy them in…

Was is policy? Cock-up? Communication failure?

I'll go with policy. The situation was shots fired. At that point, firearms become a necessity for all involved. At roughly the same time as the Manurewa shooting there was an armed incident in Otahuhu, and the nearest cars with firearms were in attendance…

I presume that's the liquor industry's definition of "moderate".

And my definition of a quiet post-pub-quiz cocktail on a Tuesday night. Damn, is it still only 3 o'clock?

e.g. serving spirits by the tray could constitute a breach of the licence by promoting irresponsible drinking.

Those laws have been varying…

As I asked above, is the problem about the expectation that Police should have done more in this case? The key board…

The fact that the police may be wonderful people doing a difficult job is neither here nor there. The issue is that they are useless. They need to either shit or get off the pot.

I second that.

As (a) good keyboard commando, what action do you suggest the police should…

As for the keyboard commando thing, let me pose you this, why should anyone have faith in a police force who apparently will show…

As good keyboard commando, what action do you suggest the police should have taken?

That is fair enough and could be seen as a…

AFAIC, a good start would be actually enforcing the licensing laws we already have on the books.

Well, the police try, but apparently the courts disagree with them when they suggest that, e.g. serving spirits by the tray could constitute a breach of the licence by promoting irresponsible drinking.

Similarly…

Sydney radio gave huge airplay to a study late last year that suggested moderate drinking, 3 – 5 standard drinks per night for men, on no more than 5 days a week, was within healthy limits.

I presume that's the liquor industry's definition of "moderate".

I actually don't recall but…

We complain about all of those things right here.

This is arguments. Complaints is down the hall.

Housing quality? Journalistic standards? Cricket?

We complain about all of those things right here.

The thought being that the victims are not further victimised by the failure of the criminal to pay compensation.

Shep: Don't mean a personal dis here, but every time I hear phrases like "revictimisation of the victims of crime" I don't have a clue what the frak they're talking about.…

The logical corollary would be things where we are absolutely dire by international standards that nobody complains about, but I can't think of an example off the top of my head.

Housing quality? Journalistic standards? Cricket?

And isn't it a little bit racist/classist to allow Mt Eden to have wall to wall wine merchants and a 24-hour Foodtown, whilst relegating Otahuhu to a modern equivalent of the six-o-clock swill.

Well, it certainly explain the quality (or lack thereof) of good chunks of the commentariat. :)

The logical corollary would be things where we are absolutely dire by international standards that nobody complains about

Commercial radio?

That's where we get away from jails and have the criminals work it off, either in their old jobs, if at all possible, or in other tasks as directed.

I've been wondering about the tendency for New Zealanders to complain about things that are, in fact, rather good. I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually causal.…

I note it's resolved, not convictions they measure though.

I wouldn't choose to live in Whanganui -…

Sydney radio gave huge airplay to a study late last year that suggested moderate drinking, 3 – 5 standard drinks per night for men, on no more than 5 days a week, was within healthy limits.

I presume that's the liquor industry's definition of "moderate".

I think Finland runs a system like this and it takes a bit of the sting out of SST.

I think National is proposing something similar, but the numbers don't come anywhere near adding up.

It's also worth noting that the most recent international crime victimisation survey gave New Zealand…

There's some stuff you won't be reading in the news ...

Didn't you know, Russell? Crime's not measured in incidences per 10,000, but in column inches.

– The homicide rate in Counties Manukau was 70% down last year — a total of 8, or an incidence of 0.2 per 10,000 people. Robberies were down too.

– OTOH, there were 17 homicides in Wellington District in 2007, or 0.4 per…

No matter what the drug, people generally stop when they run out. That is how it works in the real world.

In your 'real world', perhaps. But the one I was living in as an alcoholic (and well before you could buy wine by the case down the local Foodtown)…

I see the new govt has issued a definition of binge drinking: four standard glasses of beer in one day.

Which tells me either Australia has changed one hell of a lot, or Rudd's govt has a death wish.

More the latter, if either.

Rudd's a pretty puritanical character by…

Yeayaah!

Ahem. But back to the chat ...

While the Aussie measures seem a tad draconian, perhaps it's a matter of what you're used to. There was a time when smoking was an unassailable right. Now even the brits can't do…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brown's_Schooldays

GrandDad preffered whiskey though.

I see the new govt has issued a definition of binge drinking: four standard glasses of beer in one day.

Strewth, cobber! That's not a binge, it's breakfast!

Curiously enough, Christchurch, with roughly the same population as Manukau City, has more than twice as many liquor licences.

Christchurch, despite best efforts to turn it into a doughnut of suburban malls with a desolate hole in the middle, is still something resembling a city with an inner-city entertainment district.…

The off-licences are generally dreadful, and the bars provide a steady income courtesy of that other scourge, pokies. The supermarkets still sell booze, just via a jack-up with the trusts.

True, they do tend towards the dreadful. And it's insane that they specialise in precisely the kind of muck that…

I see the new govt has issued a definition of binge drinking: four standard glasses of beer in one day.

Which tells me either Australia has changed one hell of a lot, or Rudd's…

I don't know what's already stopping local authorities from imposing their own restrictions on liquor licences, as we do in Waitakere. The Trusts now plug millions and millions back into charities every year.

Apart from the restriction of the number of licences, I can't really see that the licensing trusts…