Hard News: Things we needed to hear
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RB
I'd argue that the seeds for cultural change in the police force were likely planted even earlier, during the Springbok tour in 1981.
While the likes of the Red Squad certainly weren't changing their colours in a hurry, the sheer social division caused by the tour I am sure (I hope) would have started a lot of young police recruits to question what they were doing, how they were doing it, and how they were perceived by Joe Public.
As those same young police came through the ranks, attitudes within must have started to change - albeit with the old guard standing firm in many instances.
Certainly from my own perspective, how I viewed the police started to change immeasurably in 1981.
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You again!
"would have started a lot of young police recruits to question what they were doing, how they were doing it, and how they were perceived by Joe Public"
From my unscientific sample of one young police officer of my acquaintance, this is true. Unfortunately he was drummed out of the force because (he said) of his questioning of what they were doing in 1981.
Of course, the fact he & a bunch of other cops were caught gambling & carousing in a place cvalled Club 59 (later to become the Mayfair Gentleman's Club, probably didn't help.)
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Having been to the lock-up yesterday and read the report pretty much right through, I agree that the report seemed largely positive, and the Government certainly jumped on the rest by saying it agreed with, and would implement as quickly as possible, all 60 of DMB's recommendations.
However I don't agree that providing complainants with anonymity had a dampening effect on the media. I saw both print and TV examples along the lines of "Look, the report says this terrible thing happened in 1983, and another terrible thing here in 1985, and yet another in 1986..."
Of course when you aggregate all the complaints it's going to look bad - systemic even - and I guess it's far from surprising some media would choose to focus on the prurient historical stuff rather than the current state of the police force.
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BTW - I only saw a minute or two on the news, but I thought John Key's criticism of Howard Broad, as if he'd been personally responsible for lack of change to the culture in the last 30 years pretty ripe.
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In light of some of the more lurid aspects of DMB's report, the catchline on the police ad at the top of the page: "Hear some great work stories", seems disturbingly appropriate.
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Andrew said "BTW - I only saw a minute or two on the news, but I thought John Key's criticism of Howard Broad, as if he'd been personally responsible for lack of change to the culture in the last 30 years pretty ripe."
Sorry Andrew I must side with Mr Key’s correct comments if I am correct to believe the book written by Tom Lewis (Coverups and copouts) .
May I humbly suggest the question for the public of New Zealand is to ask, are we prepared as a country finally going to address police culture (past and present), fairly and without bias. I think it is long overdue to open the closet and get the big broom a sweeping? Another window dress , toothless tiger investigation or police fiasco should not be expected from the public .
We must as a society be able to trust police as honourable persons of integrity.I hope they can sort all their problems out .
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Sorry Andrew I must side with Mr Key’s correct comments
That's cool D4J, like I say, I only saw a snippet.
We must as a society be able to trust police as honourable persons of integrity.I hope they can sort all their problems out .
Amen.
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I must admit I too have been wondering about the effect of police training during the '81 tour ....
But it could also be that the cause is more that because the police visibly took sides in such a contentious political issue, more than just enforcing the law but publically coming down on the side of rugby, they ended up changing the demographic that they recruited from - for a while they probably ended up only getting the 'rugby-thug' element and no one for the 'other side'
Probably it's a bit of both
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However I don't agree that providing complainants with anonymity had a dampening effect on the media. I saw both print and TV examples along the lines of "Look, the report says this terrible thing happened in 1983, and another terrible thing here in 1985, and yet another in 1986..."
Of course. And I looked for that stuff in the report too. But it makes it more about what happened - rather than having the likes of Steve Cook chasing people and trying to get them to talk. I was actually thinking of Fran O'Sullivan's column, which implied the whole thing would be useless because it didn't name names.
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Since it's become the thing to do, I'm going to share my encounter with corrupt sexual attitudes among older police officers.
At the excellent It's in the Bag at AK05, as reinvented by Havoc, Newsboy and Oliver Driver, I was sitting behind a noted senior detective who shall remain nameless.
One of the contestants, an attractive young lady of about 19, was led on stage and introdued to the audience. DC Whatsisname's response was to bellow, all the way from the St James' Grand Circle: "SHOW UZ YER TITS!!"
There was a moment of stunned silence from the whole audience, and then Havo showed him his. And got the biggest laugh of the night at our copper's expense.
I never knew you could see someone go red with humiliation when you were seated behind them...
On a more serious note - it's these kind of guys that eed to get old and leave before there is a complete culture shift, and it will take some bold young officers to start telling them where they can shove their attitudes.
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surely not the same D4J that features down at misogyny corner ....
Yes the plight of men does look to make the endangered list ( eunuchs , homosexuals and girlymen are ok -eh H2, B1 and K1 ), as Supreme Leader cranks the "ism " up another notch
ya right
or maybe that's what the "open the closet" reference is about
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bit of (non-)anonymous bleating and umbrage here.
i should reiterate. i've read a great number of the same files bazley has.
my opinion of the police was low before that job. it was shored up by the great people i got to work with on that short-term contract, but was permanently destroyed by the stuff i was reading.
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My perception of the police changed premanently when I (foolishly, I guess, but I was a baggy trousered 15 yr old) had a (small, folding) pocket knife on me on the way into a concert.
The woman at the gate gave me a ticket to get it back on the way out, so I carried on my way... Only to be followed and accosted by a couple of cops, they proceeded to call me a "fucking little cunt" and told me that if I tried to get my pocket knife back, they'd be taking me down to the station.
You kiss your mother with that mouth, orificer?
The vast majority of police I've known (including a couple I trained with in martial arts) have been normal genuine guys, but they tolerate the fuckwits in their own ranks. (One of them joked with me over a beer once about how violent, stupid and mean the team policing guys all were. With a smile on his face!)
Unlike others in here, I suspect things are going to get even worse, since they reduced the requirements to become a cop in order to fill the politically driven higher police numbers, you can now have a record and be a cop, and possibly even worse you can now be a wee man and be a cop. Normal bully cops are bad enough, how much worse will a short-man-syndrome bully cop be?
That's a nice puffy chest you have there little fella.
I'm honest and law abiding (I don't smoke pot, I don't steal, I don't drive drunk, I do little other than work hard, write about noodles, cut video and build web things), I'm a business owner, I'm a professional... and I just flat out don't trust or respect the police as a group. (Individuals, as I've alluded, are a different story.)
"I've never looked at my handcuffs and baton the same way since that afternoon with Debbie." Get better work stories.
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I suppose the crowd being talked about is the same one that now make fine private dicks (eye!). Following the PM and her husband ministers and MPs around, lying on public radio and tv and breathlessly threatening to make Government ending revelations every second week.
That's some MO building up.
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Wow, that thread on kiwiblog is something else...1 minutes worth of spittle was too much to handle.
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I guess I've been pretty lucky so far. My experiences with the police are all pretty good. Not that I'm really in much contact with them due to my pious nature.
Although they do ask some pretty searching quesitons when one applies for an arms licence.
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"would have started a lot of young police recruits to question what they were doing, how they were doing it, and how they were perceived by Joe Public"
From my unscientific sample of one young police officer of my acquaintance, this is true. Unfortunately he was drummed out of the force
a couple of my friends have recently had their kids go through police college and from those accounts it sounds like there are still some fairly unusual attitudes being propagated there, and active attempts to discourage graduates (pointed headed poofters think they're better than anyone else) and females (maaate, say no more etc)
The vast majority of police I've known... have been normal genuine guys, but they tolerate the fuckwits in their own ranks
yeah. RB's comment that Police officers have a hell of a job. They do things most of us could, or are glad not to is indesputable and i still believe most cops are good. but the good ones totally have to finish off the bent ones that produce so many problems for the community and for the law respecting parts of the police force.
but i don't fancy their chances either, bent cops aren't exactly big on playing cleanly, or by the rules. -
About 3 years ago we got some hardware nicked out of the storeroom at work. As the section manager I had to go to the local police station and make a statement to the detective in charge of the case.
I was led up to the 2nd floor of the Nelson police station to the detectives offices and was surprised to see a titty calendar on the wall. Man, I cannot remember the last time I saw one of those outside of a garage workshop. On anther wall was a black and white photo of someone's face (it may have been one of the detectives) with the word 'Faggot!" scrawled next to it in permanent marker.
I was surprised at how clichéd it all was. The guys themselves seemed OK, but it wasn't a confidence-raising exercise in terms of their attitudes to women and gay people.
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Is everyone watching Life on Mars BTW?
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merc,
Is it true that the Police don't have a standardised HR system in place?
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Is everyone watching Life on Mars BTW
yeah, a great opinion primer for the report.
Police don't have a standardised HR system
probably. you should see the legislation around who employs, directs and censures the Commissioner of Police - it's a can of worms like you wouldn't believe could exist post-Oliver Cromwell.
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Wow, that thread on kiwiblog is something else...1 minutes worth of spittle was too much to handle.
It's a shame. I used to read the Kiwiblog comments every day. Even though I never contributed I enjoyed the back and forth of debate.
Now I'm afraid to even open the comments threads. The level of hatred shown towards women, gays and other minorities is so intense it's frightening.
Having met David Farrar and found him to be a nice intelligent guy it's disappointing to see him not only tolerating but encouraging the sexism and bigotry his site is infested with. I don't understand it.
Congratulations to Russell Brown for creating a discussion site that women feel they can safely participate in. Well done.
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merc,
I agree Donna with everything you say, I have thought about it alot, and feel that Mr Farrar may be a somewhat Mephistopholean character.
I am reminded of the film Colonel Redl, or Faust. -
i'm just waiting for them to join forces with the Christian Identity Organization, then the Circle really will be complete and the Rapture can begin
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Cops are only wankers if you're not on their side. Mostly they're nice enough.
As a kid I was insulted by one for (you choose) a) not stopping quick enough to his confusing hand signals or b) being taller than him when I got out of the car.
In Ozzie I lost my leather jacket about 4 times on various drunken nights. Every time I got the jacket and everything in it back, bar one. That was the time someone handed it in to the police. The cop at the desk said 'yes, I do remember it had a camera in it when it arrived'. Never got the camera back, but on the bright side it had a totally proprietary non-standard cable, so it's utterly useless to whatever cop nicked it. They were politely apologetic.
The one time I needed them fast they turned up 4 hours later. Fortunately my assailants got the wind up just from me calling the cops. But when I saw a knife fight in the street they were there within 1 minute. Priorities.
Back in NZ a little punk on Trademe failed to return my bike jacket and helmet when I sold my hog. I filed a report with the cops. They made no progress, and I went in to update them on some further info on where the guy was. The copper was very pleased I was a computer guy because the cops IT department hadn't got his printer moved for 8 months that he'd been asking, and I did it for him in a few minutes. My jacket was personally delivered to me by the little punk most apologetically about 6 hours later...:-)
They're human, it's a hard job, there's temptation to abuse power and let your prejudices and shoulder-chips fly, but mostly they're pretty good.
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