Hard News: The Solipsistic Left
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Darryl,
My major problem with James' position here is that he is able to use religion to absolve the west, by touting Islamic fundamentalism as the root cause of the planetary mayhem we all face and thus remove any requirement to take any responsibility, or even wonder why.He can justify to himself the bombs and missiles rained on a Muslim world from afar by Christian and Jewish nations, but cries extremism when a Muslim blows him or herself up. He can decry honour killings (often tribal in nature) as Muslim fundamentalism, using that to vilify a religion and a race, but ignore the violence perpetrated against women across non-Muslim Africa, and the Americas. I was horrified in one of those links I posted to see that an estimated 41% of US female soldiers suffer sexual violence in their career, and yet the official response to General Janis Karpinski's claim about women in the army afraid to go to the latrine at night for fear of rape, was to turn a blind eye.
Applying the term Muslim fundamentalism is a very nasty catchall that has removed the requirement to take any personal or state responsibility for anything at all. Why did they blow up that bus?....they were Muslim fundamentalists. Why did they bomb Bali? They were m/f..and so on.
The Muslim mainstream I encounter daily (now I read a little Indonesian) shows the same abhorrence to the senseless acts of violence as the non-Muslim world does. But that abhorrence is coupled with an overpowering feeling of hypocrisy, when they look at the West's support for Israel, when they see Fallujah, when they see the US' backing of Mubarak. There is an understanding, ignored by James, that these acts do not happen simply because the perpetrator is Muslim, they don't happen in isolation. The planes did not fly into the WTC because the pilots were were devout Muslim. Their religion may have given them the strength to do it, but It's a cop-out to blame it solely on the religious beliefs of the pilots, regardless of how fervently they express such beliefs.
How often was the Christian god evoked in the days and months after 9/11, and you would be naive to think that soldiers pouring over the border into Iraq in 2003 did not have a fairly heartfelt massed prayer session before they turned the key in the Abrams, paid for with bits of paper with "In God We Trust" boldly inscribed on them.
This is nothing to do with apologising for Islam (or anything at all), it's about reasonable perspective, and hypocrisy.
Damn the lot of them
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"That's kind of like saying that the illiberal and aggressive variants of Christianity are Catholicism and Protestantism."
Yes... and? You mean they aren't? Could've fooled me!
So how do you figure out which bits of Islam are OK and which isn't? It's kind of hard when even "liberal Islam" does not accept or allow homosexuality? Is there perhaps an islamic country that could serve as an example of tolerance and liberalism?
(Hmm, I feel I'm sliding out on thin ice here by referring to Wikipedia...]
I'm not going to second-guess what Osama would like us to do. Well, probably join his merry band of aggressive illiberals I suppose, because his imaginary friend in the sky is bigger than your one.
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"You mean they aren't? Could've fooled me!"
Well if you're going for the plague-on-both-your-houses approach, count me in.
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Is there perhaps an islamic country that could serve as an example of tolerance and liberalism?
I think I live in the beginnings of one right now...slowly. Grinding poverty, shitty education, and rampant corruption are, despite the odd aberration, this nations biggest problems.
And yes, homosexuality, whilst illegal as it is in many non Muslim nations, is fairly openly practiced and tolerated...the ladyboys who dance for coins, as they openly tout for trade at the intersections in Jogja are always interesting to watch.
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Upon checking, homosexuality is not even legislated against in Indonesia
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WH,
This is quite funny (well, depending on your point of view).
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,2047498,00.html
As a result he is believed to have received numerous offers to send himself up in the finale of Ricky Gervais's Extras, a new Only Fools and Horses Christmas special and a proposed Doctor Who storyline in which a Prime Minister goes back in time to correct his past mistakes.
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Well, homosexuality isn't legislated against in Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt either. That doesn't seem a good measure of liberalism or even protection against repression.
Agh, another Wikipedia reference. Sorry. I agree though: why on earth would homosexuality feature as a problem, in Indonesia especially?
And Simon.... ladyboy-spotting? Not going troppo already?
Turkey is probably the most liberal and tolerant of muslim-majority countries, courtesy of Kemal Atatürk actively suppressing Islam.
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Turkey is probably the most liberal and tolerant of muslim-majority countries, courtesy of Kemal Atatürk actively suppressing Islam.
pretty loaded language there juha.
what he did was secularise/western the state. islam was the subject, not the motivation.
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And Simon.... ladyboy-spotting? Not going troppo already?
ha, perhaps, but a 6' 2" ladyboy tapping on ones car window or swaying across the hood of the vehicle is hard to miss.
Do the openly gay nightclubs constitute tolerance....
Poofter bashing (by the authorities and otherwise) doesn't occur outside Islamic society of course.....
I guess what I am saying is that intolerance in religious tracts is not the only relevant factor in any society's treatment of it's gay community
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No, seriously. Atatürk actively suppressed Islam - he banned expressions of it like headscarves in public and in school for instance. The ban is still in place, and you don't get to wear them on your driver's licence picture or ID card either.
He wanted to build a secular, modern and democratic Turkey, distinct from what he saw as the backward, Islamic Ottoman Empire. Just like catholicism is Rome's last claim to fame, the Turks aren't stupid and realise that much of Islam is just Arab imperialism cloaked as religion, which is one reason Atatürk ditched Arabic script in Turkey.
Besides, suppressing islam makes for better food. Mmm... ekmek, meze ile raki istiyorum...
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Simon makes a salient point there: it's a little bit hard to hold up one's part of the world as a model when there's only a thin veneer of tolerance there.
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Turkey is probably the most liberal and tolerant of muslim-majority countries
Lebanon is pretty damn loose. At least it was a couple of years ago - I hear things are pretty uptight since Israels latest invasion and Hezbollahs 'divine victory'.
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Okay, back to Attorneygate:
This is intriguing stuff. I love the way these US scandals develop a twisting life of their own.
Gonzales was just the first twig on the tree.
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No, seriously. Atatürk actively suppressed Islam
bro... i hate to be a stickler, but that's what secularisation means. e.g. actively suppressing christian prayers in schools, and letting girls wear short skirts.
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Yes yes... I thought your definition of secular was "turn the other cheek to religionists while wearing a short skirt gazing at ladyboys" or something. It's not easy all this intarweb debating.
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Ataturk's life makes for an interesting read, pity his successors don't man up about Armenia, or Kurdistan for that matter.
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if putin won't man up about using chechnya "as an example" to other former soviet regions who might be considering secession, why should the turks do the same for armenia?
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"Man up"? Wot dat?
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Juha, if you won't man up and read the urban dictionary then I'm not going to man up and do it for you.
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What about man down though? Or woman up? Don't be so like that one heh?
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I see you have found the kryptonite
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"turn the other cheek... while wearing a short skirt gazing at ladyboys" or something. It's not easy all this intarweb debating.
Debating? I thought this was internet dating?
no wonder some of the come-ons have been so oblique. -
Danyl wrote:
"Russell's original thesis for this thread was that 'the left' are not apologists for Islamic fundamentalism. It seems to me that many of the posters here have gone some way towards disproving that."Way to go Danyl!! Couldn't have said it better myself.
I read the posts after my listing of a handful of the nasty things to happen within the Islamic world with resignation, not disbelief. There really is deep seated denial in the world today, truly a case of none so blind as those who will not see.
The examples I gave are all linked to fundamental tenants of Islam.
That women are second class citizens that have to be literally owned by a male relative, either her father or her husband. That women tempt men and therefore must be covered outside the house. That it is the duty of Muslims to spread Islam, by peaceful means or otherwise. If a Muslim dies in the pursuit of spreading Islam, he hits the jackpot and goes straight to paradise, complete with 76 virgins. These aspects are obviously stronger in the more extreme parts of the religion, like Wahabbism.
How about some nice quotes to further emphasize the point:
"Human rights are a Judeo Christian construct that have no place in Islam": Iranian ambassador to the UN in 1986
"To take as a wife a girl before she becomes a woman is a divine blessing": Ayatollah Khomeini.
Child rape is a divine blessing. Nice, really nice. Well I guess Mohammed did it and he is the perfect man whose example is to be followed, so it must be okay.
And those quotes are not from Abdul the goatherder from the backblocks of Afghanistan, they are from major figures in the Islamic world.
And no, there is nothing wrong with Islam!! Don't be ridiculous you ignorant bigot!!
Getting back to the original subject of the thread, here is an article about what a number of progressive in the Middle East think of progressives outside the Middle East (that would many of those who post on PA).
The article is titled "BETRAYED, HOW MIDEAST PROGRESSIVES FEEL ABOUT THEIR WESTERN 'COMRADES'
And I will preempt Simon. Yes, the link is to an article in the New York Post, a Dr Evil Darth Vader Satan's Spawn Rupert Murdoch paper. However, just because the Observer and Guardian are left leaning papers, doesn't mean that everything they print is a load of bollocks, and just because the Post is a right leaning paper doesn't mean that everything that they print is a load of bollocks either.
I think it is plainly obvious that many on the left/ progressive sphere around the world are in a de-facto alliance with the extreme elements in the Middle East, not by deliberate design, but in practical effect. And before you spit a bunch of bile back at me, stop and consider who wins if the US and multi national forces leaves Iraq or the Middle East as the left wants it to? Not the moderate progressive elements in the region described in the article, not those who want to create a tolerant society that respects human rights, woman and free speech. The winners in that scenario are Al Qaeda, Islamists and the extreme elements in the Iran regime. How do you feel about doing spade work for that brutal, miserable cast of characters? That is exactly what you are doing.
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Tenets, not fundie tenants please...
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3410,
James,
You said,
I read the posts after my listing of a handful of the nasty things to happen within the Islamic world with resignation, not disbelief. There really is deep seated denial in the world today, truly a case of none so blind as those who will not see.
So, the only possible explanation for anyone disagreeing with you it that they refuse to see the truth.
Unfortunately in this politically correct world we live in today, to be frank and honest is to risk being called a racist or bigot or whatever other pejorative is the favorite of the day, which greatly hinders progress. How can you do anything about a problem, if political correctness prevents you from being able to speak about it?
and everyone who calls you out for errors of fact or logic is hampering your free speech.
The reason you keep getting complaints here is that you are intellectually dishonest, and here are ……… more examples. Neil said
…at present there are more Muslims that aspire to spread their religion violently but I believe that is caused by young men coming from conservative tribal backgrounds and feeling alienated by modernity. With a few lunatics like bin Laden thrown in.
And your response to that is
Mohammed Atta "came from conservative tribal backgrounds and feeling alienated by modernity". That seems a bit of a stretch.
You are misrepresenting what he said. Then there’s this straw man:
Only the nonsense of the multiculturalism leads to this kind of ridiculous thinking, that for example it is racist or discriminatory to point out that honor killings, the cultural acceptance of wife beatings, the burqa etc are all primitive and unacceptable and have no place in a civilized society. Instead we are supposed to go "oohh" & "ahhhh", "who am I to say such things, I have no right to judge others". What utter crap.
What utter crap, indeed. Demolishing an argument that no-one is making doesn’t fool anyone. Then there’s this red herring,
How many Hindu, Buddhist or Christian suicide bombers have there been over time? Not too many.
Even if true, it proves nothing about anything other than suicide bombings. There’s plenty of evidence that US troops have raped young women, killed babies, tortured people and murdered entire families, causing the deaths of more than half a million civilians in this decade alone, but since that doesn’t quite fit with your thesis that Islam is the evil one, you fail to mention it.
You hold Islam responsible for the following statements,
"Human rights are a Judeo Christian construct that have no place in Islam": Iranian ambassador to the UN in 1986
"To take as a wife a girl before she becomes a woman is a divine blessing": Ayatollah Khomeini.
… but you show no eagerness to hold Christianity responsible for these statements,
"(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." – Pat Robertson
"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this [9/11] happen.'" – Jerry Falwell
… and yet when someone says that your opinions seem prejudiced, you respond,
I read the posts after my listing of a handful of the nasty things to happen within the Islamic world with resignation, not disbelief. There really is deep seated denial in the world today, truly a case of none so blind as those who will not see.
You admit to being,
no expert on religion
yet keep posting many long comments based on your admitted
little knowledge that I have of Islam
And now, when anyone contradicts your flimsy theses, they are not only stifling your free speech and 'in denial', but also doing spadework for Al Qaeda.
Grow up, you twit.
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