"kids just don't get postmodernism these days".

that raised a giggle.

ending to the thread from hell.

Well the part I was involved in was interesting. Lots of disagreement and vigorous debate. Good stuff. Did you think PA was a comfortable echo chamber or something :-)

many horrendous scholastic, artistic, culinary and sartorial delusions can be attributed to deconstructionism – although its proponents are rarely as fun loving and levitous as post-colonial disaster writers.

What's more, these proponents of deconstruction(ism?)really hate being deconstructed. Try it on the next one you meet.

i think the old chestnut of 'it was post-colonialism what dunnit' has been thrashed worse than many misapplied excuses for all manner of ills and consequently most people who have heard it enough are rightly put off. chalk one more up for…

as long as you have a country with straight lines on its national borders there will be post-colonial internal trouble

In support of your argument I wouild like to refer you to the pub in Spike Milligan's Puckoon as the definitive example of post colonial internal trouble.

Apologies if anybody…

Aghhh Post-Colonial, arrrrrr, run's screaming from the room, ears hand-cupped, and not quite sure why...

Normally my reaction, but I watched part one of the BBC's serious new doco, Racism: A History, last night, and it made me think poorly of colonialism. I was moved to silently blame colonialism for…

Russell: that's a tricky kettle of fish. Where do you draw the line in terms of self-censorship and how do achieve consistency? It would seem the only way to do that is to avoid politics and religion altogether.

Obviously, the reaction to the Mohammed Cartoons was stronger than to say…

just that the post in the colonial was what they tied young coloured boys to fur a whuppin'.

certainly both the British and the French haven't always been the best to their colonial subjects

Bengal 1942-43, which has only really been looked at in recent years, dwarfs (if one was able to measure such things, which is of course contentious), in it's conscious evil, pretty much anything the…

"Les Arabs" – has negative connotations if refering to people living in France. Neutral to positive if refering to Arabs not in France such as in the Israel/Palestinian conflict.

"Les Beurres" – young, urban, usually male,…

2) Recognize that the so called Muslim states aren't necessarily "Islamic." The majority of the laws in the Muslim world are an amalgam of European civil code, Shariah, and Anglo-Saxon common…

why do folks insist on singling them out? It feels to me that part of it at least is because we need a new bogey man, now that the USSR is no longer

amen

Because there are an awful lot of congressional districts which need that bogey man.

One is…

amen

Hmm. This discussion's really veered off the tracks, so I'll get off before it crashes completely. :)

Well, yes. As I said, I am not trying to offend – especially during Passover. Doh!

Off to back my bags for my flight to Europe tomorrow.

Fair and balanced reporting will ensure…

They're not integrating very well into a liberal, western society

Juha, some are, some are not. It's just too sweeping a statement. The fact is, the ghettoisation of minorities comes down to many factors, not leasts of which are fear of persecution by more powerful sections of the population. Other…

nonsense, it 'veered at about pages 3, 5, 8, 11 , 12 and 14. i've enjoyed the detours

Has anyone else thought of the irony behind Iran releasing British soldiers

I take that back. Russell was, of course, miles ahead of me.

But anyway, do continue and explain how the Muslim Holocaust you're hinting at is in progress.

Oh come on. That's about as willful as misreading as you could make.

So is this:

You may also find that xenophobia and discrimination in Europe – and elsewhere – isn't exclusively aimed at…

yeah, their 'prestige' started to dwindle a little bit there toward the end, when it became apparent that after the war they wouldn't be rewarded so much with handmaidens and riches,…

But anyway, do continue and explain how the Muslim Holocaust you're hinting at is…

i also have euro family history tied up with all that so i just like those things not to be forgotten.

Well they are not forgotten, other than by a few right wing non-academics.

This part of the thread began way back with a few folk putting forward the contention…

just to confuse things a bit more and harking back to an earlier point about rocks and hard places, let's not forget that every…

However, Sonic clearly stated that muslims are…

Muslims have to wear crescent insignia on their clothes?

They have their property confiscated by fascist regimes?

If that's what Tuchmann says, she's stretching her credibility paper thin.

Making spurious comparisons like that really isn't helpful. That's Kiwiblog comments section territory so it'd be good if you didn't do it.

What you said was:

"In the same way we defended Jewish people being persected in the 1930's we defend Muslim victims of persecution today."

Kristallnacht was in 1938. The Nuremberg laws were passed in 1935. The first…

If you look at a lot of the extremist rhetoric from that time you can see disturbing echoes today.

Anyhoo...

I'm also too young to have been in the war, or to have taken part in the politics…

Comparisons to Europe in the 30s are hyperbole.

Agreed.

Obviously, the reaction to the Mohammed Cartoons was stronger than to say…

I think it's important to counter that rhetoric, mind.

On another note, I'd call being…

I'd wger that some of the left sympathy for Islam is more of an alliance of convenience – you know, they are clearly focused on their traditional enemies in the centre or right, and anyone who is not of the latter is a potential ally to be co-opted.

I don't…

You seem to think Finland persecuted the Jews as well, which isn't true.

No I don't. That was supposed to pass as humour, dubious though it may have been. Fighting on the side of the Nazis, for whatever reason, was not a good sign though. You probably do know more…

I think I know a bit more than you do about Europe and discrimination and can honestly say that it's not the same now as it was a century ago.

You seem to think Finland persecuted the Jews as well, which…

certainly would've been more humorous

I distrust religions but really feel that "liberalism" has as much to do with economics and education than religion.

Whilst the plots are gripping, the anti-sematism and…

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

If you have an example of someone from that elastic group of people who get referred to as "The Left" please do share it?

Many of those you call the "left" are deeply unhappy about a minority group in western society being abused and persecuted due to their religion. In the same way we defended Jewish people being persected in the 1930's we defend Muslim victims of persecution today.

And so am I. But…

yes. some muslims in some parts of the world, especially the middle east, are freaking nutters with god-complexes.

and yes, some parts of the entire islamic world religion are a bit fucked up. they bully women and gays, they are excessively conservative, and they…

As an aside, the Jews had precious few defenders in the thirties. That's kind of why things happened the way they did.

Many of those you call the "left" are deeply unhappy about a minority group in western society being abused and persecuted due to their religion. In the same way we defended Jewish people being persected in the 1930's we defend Muslim victims…

Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam.

Well now you're making another argument. I think this thread has demonstrated that some on the left are sympathetic towards Islam – for reasons that utterly baffle me…

The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890

The money graphs:

"It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to…

I would argue that Pancasila is still the central tenet of the Indonesian nation, and has, in reality, been strengthened by the democratic debate.

Good to hear & thanks for that. Would be nice to have the first principle amended to give the option of being a godless apostate, though.

I think it is plainly obvious that many on the left/ progressive sphere around the world are in a de-facto alliance with the extreme elements in the Middle East, not by deliberate design, but in practical effect.

We fellow travelers are still waiting for your, from inside the USA,…

You'd have to look at which country has more influence over islam though: is it rich Saudi Arabia, with Mecca and Medina to where muslims go on pilgrimage, and which funds mosques around the world (including NZ). Or, is it poor and populous Indonesia?

Have to? That's quite an authoritarian…

I have to agree that there is a very real danger that Iraq could be taken over by the Iraqis.

Surely none of us want that to happen?

In Wahabist Saudi Arabia, women must be veiled in public and are forbidden to drive.
In 90% Sunni Indonesia, with the world's largest population of muslims, a woman can go out, veiled or unveiled, on her motorbike pretty much whenever she chooses.
There are at…

You said,

I read the posts after my listing of a handful of the nasty things to happen within the Islamic world with resignation, not disbelief. There really is deep seated denial in the world today, truly a case of none so blind as those who will not see.

…

Way to go Danyl!! Couldn't have said it better myself.

I read the posts after…

Debating? I thought this was internet dating?
no wonder some of the come-ons have been so oblique.

No, seriously. Atatürk actively suppressed Islam

bro... i hate to be a stickler, but that's what secularisation means. e.g. actively suppressing christian prayers in schools, and letting girls wear short skirts.

This is intriguing stuff. I love the way these US scandals develop a twisting life of their own.

Gonzales was just the first twig on the tree.

Turkey is probably the most liberal and tolerant of muslim-majority countries

Lebanon is pretty damn loose. At least it was a couple of years ago – I hear things are pretty uptight since Israels latest invasion and Hezbollahs 'divine victory'.

He wanted to build a secular, modern…

And Simon.... ladyboy-spotting? Not going troppo already?

ha, perhaps, but a 6' 2" ladyboy tapping on ones car window or swaying across the hood of the vehicle is hard to miss.

Do the openly gay nightclubs constitute tolerance....

Poofter bashing (by the authorities and otherwise) doesn't occur outside Islamic society…

Turkey is probably the most liberal and tolerant of muslim-majority countries, courtesy of Kemal Atatürk actively suppressing Islam.

pretty loaded language there juha.

what he did was secularise/western the state. islam was the subject, not the motivation.

Agh, another Wikipedia reference. Sorry. I agree though: why on earth would homosexuality feature as a problem, in Indonesia especially?

And Simon.... ladyboy-spotting? Not…

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,2047498,00.html

As a result he is believed to have received numerous offers to send himself up in the finale of Ricky Gervais's Extras, a new Only Fools and Horses Christmas special and a proposed Doctor Who storyline in which…

Is there perhaps an islamic country that could serve as an example of tolerance and liberalism?

I think I live in the beginnings of one right now...slowly. Grinding poverty, shitty education, and rampant corruption are, despite the odd aberration, this nations biggest problems.

And yes, homosexuality, whilst illegal as it…

Well if you're going for the plague-on-both-your-houses approach, count me in.

Yes... and? You mean they aren't? Could've fooled me!

So how do you figure out which bits of Islam are OK and which isn't? It's kind of hard when even "liberal Islam" does…

He can…

you turn every Muslim into your potential enemy. This is neither just nor smart. And paradoxically, it is just what people like Osama Ben Laden would like you to do. I think that is the insanity Che is referring to.

that's exactly it. islam has a lot of flaws, none…

They aren't. That's kind of like saying that the illiberal and aggressive variants of Christianity are Catholicism and Protestantism. ObWikiLink

My fundamental issue is that by charging all these evils to Islam the world religion, rather than the…

Couple of things here: why is it insane to tar an "entire world religion" as a threat to humanity? I don't think anyone's said Islam is a threat to all of humanity…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/30/AR2007033002142.html?hpid=sec-religion

He said she also underwent stringent psychological evaluations, a step not usually required during…

so. let's ask…

I don't necessarily buy that neocons and their ilk have a distaste for Islam as such either. Why would they? Islam is illiberal and misogynist to the core. If it kept to itself without…

otherwise, all the bits of information you've strung together in the pretence of an argument are just that, "bits of information". it is neither a compelling narrative of islamic extremism, or a realistic one. you are cherry picking googled information to justify your neocon distaste for islam.

I gotta say…

that's the world where good old boys can't even honestly call a human being a nigger or faggot or chink or retard.

That'd be the politically correct, hairy-armpitted world we live in today.

this politically correct world we live in today

i love that one, that's the world where good old boys can't even honestly call a human being a nigger or faggot or chink or…

You're flat wrong, and failure to acknowledge that begins to…

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/
http://www.alternet.org/story/38942/
http://hometown.aol.com/milesfdn/myhomepage/
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/08/1443232#transcript

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/index.html

Fifteen minutes looking thru a history of Christendom might help you too.

Che says the rest rather well, although he forgot Christian militias running murderously through Palestinian camps at the instigation of a Jewish military.

Now that the British government has accepted the methology of the Johns Hopkins…

How many Hindu, Buddhist or Christian suicide bombers have there been over time? Not too many

heard of the tamil tigers?

what about the kamikaze?

now, the IRA weren't suicide bombers, but they terrorised britain for decades.

james, if you are ever called a bigot, it is because your language…

My initial point was that there were difficulties with the US and British containment of Saddam.

No, I disgree completely. Quite the opposite. Any military analyst (of which I'm little more than an interested amateur) would tell you that Saddam was absolutely contained by the end of 1991. He…

well that would run the risk of creating something palatable.

there is nothing more cruel nor inhumane than meat and 3 veg. britain's vicious legacy to the civilized world

and one dish to rule them........

why have 3 veg when you can have them all!

I don't deny that the US forces were there over the next decade to keep the pressure on Iraq

I can accept that, but maybe you changed your mind in the later post.

My initial point was that there were difficulties with the US and British containment of Saddam. One…

Ridley,

There you go, the liberal left, so full of hatred for bland starchy meals that you are willing to defend perpetrators of nose-searing artificially green food over freedom, human rights and Decency. Shame on you.

The US was stuck – as long as Saddam remained in power they needed to keep troops in Saudi Arabia which was inflaming Muslim opinion.

I suspect the fact that they were protecting a major source of oil had something to do with it as well.

And the US didn't…

The need to deter Saddam after 1990 was superfluous

Not so, US troops in Saudi were there as part of the no-fly zone regime. The minute Saddam fell they were pulled out. The BBC reports on this – US pulls out of Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia is home to some…

Why do you hate freedom?

I think they were mainly there to stop Saddam invading which did protect oil supplies. But having then to deter Saddam made life difficult for the US since having foreign troops in the land of Mecca was a big problem for Muslims. The US was caught a bit there.

The…

"note: terrance wood, extremist".

There is only one option. We must invade their countries, kill their chefs, and convert them to meat and three veg!

(sorry)

neoliberalism is after all new version of a perfectly good philosophy

neocons aren't really conservatives (old or new) though. their agenda is quite radical and has nothing to do with turning the clock back or preserving the status quo. it is…

The wahabists can count more than a few well-educated, modern young men in their ranks. Indeed, their recruiting methods concentrate in part on wooing young men in Western universities. They're a little like the old communist states in that respect, and perhaps others too.

True, I was thinking more of…

neololiberalism

great word. neologism + neoliberalism.

neoliberalism is after all new version of a perfectly good philosophy.

otherwise, the whole food metaphor didn't get past me going [homeresque] "rhubard.... gaaaaaa"

i'm petrified i'd accidentally ingest a cherry-picked set of paragraphs from adam smith and develop on onset of extreme conservatism... a fate worst than death.

it's making me increasingly paranoid...

ha-hah!!

a post on the de-liberalisation of frightened countries.

Where do you find these crackpots Che?

a post on the de-liberalisation of frightened countries.

And I have to say I haven't noted any secular groups, no "Atheists of Manhatten", no "Secular Progressives of Berkley", no "Humanists of San Fran". Just those damned Christians helping someone out every time you turn around.

No Red Cross either? I am surprised.

I assume you are unaware that…

please let me be the first to groan very loudly :)

Neil,

Troops in Saudi were necessary for protecting oil supplies not the sanctions regime. Iran's border with Iraq is long and porous and their were no troops their. Yet sanctions we're effective enough.

OK, I'm sorry. Couldn't help it.

And yet James I live in a country, 86% Muslim which has an almost negligible rate of domestic abuse. Indonesia, ...

And we mustn't forget that since Simon lives there, he must be absolutely correct, irrespective of anything you have heard to the contrary.

:)

And while that dividing line might be somewhat gray, that honor killings, the cultural acceptance of wife beatings etc are over that line? This seems perfectly reasonable to me, or is that just neo Nazi neocon thinking?

And yet James I live in a country, 86% Muslim which has an…

i'll probably kick myself for getting involved in this, but had to share this, which i recieved today (take from it what you will):

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

Hi Anjum – thanks for this. And I hope you don't have to kick yourself :-)

The…

CAIR: http://www.cair.com/

chicago tribune article: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703270505mar28,1,7295145.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

AFP article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070327/wl_afp/egyptconstitution_070327115149

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

U.S. MUSLIM GROUP SAYS EGYPT 'BACKSLIDING' ON REFORMS
CAIR: No 'business as usual' in…

I agree that the left should not align itself with the excesses of Islamic fundamentalism, whatever those excesses might be. I would prefer to leave questions of comparative religion for another discussion, if thats okay.

As I interpret it, there is a broad desire on the left to ensure…

"Islam needs to go through some kind of change or modernization, but Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of Allah and cannot be altered or reinterpreted in any way."

And I pointed out that the very same thing is true of a group of Christians on…

Veiled Intolerance

Money quote:

As a rule, Islamism's greatest appeal is among second- or third-­generation "immigrants": maladapted youth whom the integration process has failed and who feel desperately torn between two worlds--their parents' country of origin, which many have never seen, and their adoptive…

Mohammed spread Islam with tremendous brutality. Apparently his army would approach a town or city. He would send out an emissary who would tell the people to convert to Islam or he would kill everyone in the town or city, which he did on several occasions. A hell of…

Unfortunately, as a few google searches and surfing of the web will show, examples of people like Ken Livingstone codling a crazed Islamic nutter cleric are a dime a dozen.

would you care to provide these quotes?

and, the 11 september bombers are not the tribal muslims neil is talking…

He was born to a middle class Egyptian family, went to university and then went to live in Germany where he got a graduate engineering degree from a German Universtity.…

At the core of Islam is "submit or I will chop your head off". Islam has at its core the conquest of the world by Muslims, by war if necessary, for Allah. It is the only religion like this.

I'm no expert on religion as well, but the little knowledge…

Here, I agree with you. Opposing the hijab ban is one thing – I don't think a government has the right to tell me what I can or can't wear on my goddamn head – but even thinking about sharing a stage with such a person is lunatic.

Good!…

I do agree that at present there are more Muslims that aspire to spread their religion violently but I believe that is caused by young men coming from conservative tribal backgrounds and feeling alienated by modernity. With a few lunatics like bin Laden thrown in.

i don't think i could…

Really? I'd say the scourge of nationalism which is just tribalism writ large still haunts Europe and North America.

I agree that nationalism brings its own set of problems but I would argue that the nation state is a less violent means of social organisation than tribalism. (Violent death is…