Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The newest neocon catastrophe

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  • chris mcnair,

    Aren't the Russians being neocons too in their own way? Seeking to achieve your desired economic / security situation by military bullying would be my definition of a neocon foreign policy.

    I would have said more nationalist or national conservative than neo, but yeah.

    auckland • Since Jul 2008 • 39 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Yes, it's the overlay of moral superiority and the conviction that American interests are everybody's interests which distinguishes the neo-con. Nominally, at least, you are being invaded for your own good. Unless the Russians are making statements about bringing the benefits of Russian democracy (to scare-quote or not to scare-quote...) to South Ossetia I don't think you can count them as neocons.

    The most recent historical parallel I can think of is the British Empire, which as we know only existed to bring englightenment and the benefits of civilisation to those who desperately needed it.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Michie,

    Links to coverage of the American role in escalating Russian/Georgian tensions:

    "Bush pressed the other NATO powers to place Georgia's application for membership on the fast track. The Europeans rejected the idea, understanding the geo-strategic implications of pushing NATO's boundaries right up to Russia's border. If the Europeans had let Bush have his way, we would now be obligated by treaty to send troops in Georgia's defense. That is to say, we would now be in a shooting war with the Russians. . ." which doesn't exactly make it a Cold War.

    [T]hat while Iraq was a mistake originally, it hasn't turned out all that bad

    :

    Let's reserve judgement of that until journalists feel safe enough to leave the Green Zone and report on the rest of the country.

    Auckward • Since Nov 2006 • 614 posts Report Reply

  • Geoff Lealand,

    Iraq hasn't turned out all that bad.

    We should file that one with 'At least Mussolini got the trains to run on time' and 'Hitler liked dogs'

    Screen & Media Studies, U… • Since Oct 2007 • 2562 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    </quote>The most recent historical parallel I can think of is the British Empire, which as we know only existed to bring englightenment and the benefits of civilisation to those who desperately needed it</quote>

    The French Empire had much the same set of rationales,

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    The French Empire had much the same set of rationales,

    As did the Soviets spreading the joys of communism.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    'At least Mussolini got the trains to run on time'

    Don't be hating on Mussolini. He invaded Abyssinia to get rid of slavery.

    Just like China in Tibet!

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    rodger, angus: fer sure. Imperialism with a paint-job of idealism. Although I think a genuine neoconservative has to really believe it's for foreigners' own good, not just cynically claim it.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    Actually the British Empire did use its hyper-power status stamp out slavery, and in the end for whatever reason bequeathed democracy to what is now a billion Indians. Compare that to the bitterness of the French retreat from empire in Algiers and Indo-China.

    Whilst no one for a minute would pretend the real joy of Hilaire Belloc's little ditty:

    "Whatever happens, we have got:
    The Maxim gun,
    and they have not."

    was about the increased speed one could extend the benefits of muscular Christianity and democracy to the white man's burden, here in NZ we have to be grateful for the certitude of their Imperial outlook, otherwise none of us would be here today. Funny thing, history - It's always the curate's egg.

    Sevilla, Espana • Since Nov 2006 • 2217 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    Also, the main thing I'm starting to wonder about Georgia is if it's another Iraq-style fuckup in another sense - remember the claim that Iraq only invaded Kuwait after the US gave the wink?

    And, additionally: Surrender or Else.

    I have to say, that while demanding Georgia "...abjure all use of force to resolve Georgia's territorial disputes with the two breakaway pro-Russian provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia..." may be "humiliating" it doesn't seem especially unreasonable.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    otherwise none of us would be here today

    Well, some of us would, some of us wouldn't. There would likely still have been a European colonisation, most likely French, which could have been better or worse. After all, the French didn't throw their colonies overboard with nary so much as a "fuck you very much" when they joined the EU...

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    The most recent historical parallel I can think of is the British Empire, which as we know only existed to bring englightenment and the benefits of civilisation to those who desperately needed it.

    Just in case everyone hasn't heard about China enough lately, the official imperial discourse out of Beijing for a large part of the last two thousand years was angled in just the same language of 'bringing englightenment and the benefits of civilisation to those who desperately needed it'. This Confucian enlightenment was so marvellously humanitarian that China generally only expected tribute payments rather than military surrender from its neighbours, except of course when obeisance wasn't forthcoming (cue numerous invasions of Vietnam and Korea over the centuries).

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1611 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    Hush, Sam. Don't you know China is just misunderstood by big Western racists?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Angus Robertson,

    Although I think a genuine neoconservative has to really believe it's for foreigners' own good, not just cynically claim it.

    Yes, hence partly the problem why it is difficult to credit neoconservatism as a driving force within the Republican Party. Most people are hard put to ascribe "genuine belief" and "a lack of cynicism" as core features of the GoP.

    Auckland • Since May 2007 • 984 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Thomas,

    And lets not forget, that while Iraq was a mistake originally, it hasn't turned out all that bad. The silence now from the left-wing media on Iraq says it all...nothing much remains to criticise.

    the ends hardly justify the means

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 317 posts Report Reply

  • Trevor Nicholls,

    And lets not forget, that while Iraq was a mistake originally, it hasn't turned out all that bad. The silence now from the left-wing media on Iraq says it all...

    I'll pass over the two errors of grammar...

    nothing much remains to criticise.

    ...and focus on the two superfluous words. I think you got it in three.

    Wellington, NZ • Since Nov 2006 • 325 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And lets not forget, that while Iraq was a mistake originally, it hasn't turned out all that bad. The silence now from the left-wing media on Iraq says it all...

    Oh, some people are still keeping count. A quick scan of Iraq Today indicates nearly 50 people have been killed by suicide bombings, IEDs, etc, since Saturday, and at least twice that many wounded. Couple of mortar attacks on the Green Zone too.

    The squatters being kicked out of government buildings don't have homes any more of course, and the US soldier who had his spine shattered and half his body burned on his sixth tour of duty is still struggling with life. And if course there are a couple of million displaced people who have no idea when they might return to their homes, let alone whether there is actually anything to return to.

    But apart from that, it's going swimmingly five years down the track.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    This Confucian enlightenment was so marvellously humanitarian that China generally only expected tribute payments rather than military surrender from its neighbours, except of course when obeisance wasn't forthcoming (cue numerous invasions of Vietnam and Korea over the centuries).

    Including, famously, demanding that the barbarian upstart Victoria send them some tribute right quick when the first major English embassy showed up. The most astonishing thing about China through the centuries has been their failure to conquer or colonise most of the world, primarily because the rulers just assumed that everyone was already subordinate to them.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Jan Farr,

    Aren't the Russians being neocons too in their own way? Seeking to achieve your desired economic / security situation by military bullying would be my definition of a neocon foreign policy.

    According to Naomi Klein in The Shock Doctrine, the Russian's were 'shocked' into neo-con economics when Yeltsin consulted Milton Friedman and then, taking his 'create a crisis' advice, turned his guns on parliament. He seized the opportunity created by this catastrophe to impoverish 72 million Russians and create 17 new Russian billionaires. I don't think it would be safe to assume, however, that Russia is populated with neo-cons.

    Carterton • Since Apr 2008 • 395 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg,

    Including, famously, demanding that the barbarian upstart Victoria send them some tribute right quick when the first major English embassy showed up.

    I think you have your monarchs mixed up, Lord Macartney answered to George III, if that's who you refer to. By Victoria's time China had reason to understand a little more of the impact the British Empire would have on them.

    But lets face it, all empires justify their expansion under the guise of civilisation..be it religion, knowledge or some version of freedom.

    Hush, Sam. Don't you know China is just misunderstood by big Western racists?

    It's such a burden advancing these savages, especially when they don't know they need it.

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    He seized the opportunity created by this catastrophe to impoverish 72 million Russians and create 17 new Russian billionaires.

    Which gives us a rough estimate of how many people you need to squish to raise one to super-wealth. Which makes you wonder what Naional's backers think they'd get out of such policies, since only one of them wil get to be the oligarch...

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • Jan Farr,

    Which gives us a rough estimate of how many people you need to squish to raise one to super-wealth. Which makes you wonder what Naional's backers think they'd get out of such policies, since only one of them wil get to be the oligarch...

    Or maybe one fifth of a Nat - I don't know - what percentage of 72 million is 17?

    Carterton • Since Apr 2008 • 395 posts Report Reply

  • Terence W,

    Weirdly, over at The Hive, which normally doesn't get many comments there are lively discussions by people who seem to have a stake in all this. Even comments in what I assume to be Russian?

    The same thing happened to the first Crooked Timber thread on the conflict. All of a sudden the polite discussions of academics were disrupted by POST IN CAPITALS AND NO SO GOOD ENGLISH.

    I'd love to learn what guides these virtual flash mobs.

    The bear has definitely escaped the cage.

    Before the grammar of the discourse plunged at CT someone offered up a Henry Kissenger quote along the lines of 'don't expect a former great power to stay ungreat for long'. Kissenger was, alas, talking about the UK during the Falklands conflict, which kindof undermines what he was trying to say. Much more convincing in the case of Russia though...

    YesWeCanberra • Since Mar 2008 • 41 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    Hush, Sam. Don't you know China is just misunderstood by big Western racists?

    It's such a burden advancing these savages, especially when they don't know they need it.

    The funny thing is, of course, that this applies to both sides...

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • Terence W,

    Mikhail Gorbachev offers his thoughts.

    YesWeCanberra • Since Mar 2008 • 41 posts Report Reply

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