Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Softly, softly

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  • Paul Campbell,

    so one of my neighbours is a recent immigrant from the Ukraine - his take on what's happening there is largely "a pox on all their houses" .... he doesn't see any good actors in the current conflict and says that what we see in the media is pretty inaccurate

    (for the record he's from the western part, not the 'Russian' part)

    last time I talked to him he said he thought people should decide region by region who they wanted to be - which is sort of what's happening I guess

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    so one of my neighbours is a recent immigrant from the Ukraine – his take on what’s happening there is largely “a pox on all their houses” …. he doesn’t see any good actors in the current conflict and says that what we see in the media is pretty inaccurate

    There are certainly some bad actors in the Ukranian government, but to claim as Pilger does that they're all neo-Nazis is palpably untrue. Letting elections take place seems appropriate.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report

  • Craig Ranapia,

    But Africans consistently admire the elements of US soft power: its culture rather than its weapons.

    And not just Africans and Americans. If you attended anything with a British author at the Auckland Writers Festival over the weekend, there’s fairly good odds it happened with a considerable assist from the British Council. The Goethe-Institut and Alliance Francaise have also been exercising the soft power of cultural diplomacy in New Zealand for an awfully long time.

    It not only works better than political willy-waving, but it's sure as hell a lot more fun.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report

  • Chris Waugh,

    What I'm curious about, but have seen precious little comment on so far, is what Francois Hollande is getting up to with his recent West African summit, and how involved France is intending to get in this new "war on Boko Haram". Sure, traditionally Francophone (including former Belgian) Africa is to France what Latin America is to the USA, but Nigeria isn't part of that...

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report

  • bob daktari,

    I'd be interested (but aren't holding my breath) as to what the US involvement in the destabilisation of the Ukraine and formation of the crisis was - something we're still very much in the midst of.

    I doubt Putin is doing anything but playing for time, which is very on his side...

    auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 540 posts Report

  • Russell Brown, in reply to bob daktari,

    I doubt Putin is doing anything but playing for time, which is very on his side...

    Take a look at the graphs in the Vox article. He has real problems.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report

  • Matthew Poole,

    I’ve been rather perplexed by the continued assertions in some quarters that the US has set Russia up in the Ukraine in order to have a pretext for war. A war over what, to what end, and with what US logistics train appears to have been rather overlooked, but there’s a determined section of the population who are convinced that the Americans are itching to get into a full-scale tanks-vs-tanks hot war with the Russians.

    These are the people who were certain that the false-flag operation purportedly being engineered by a US military attaché and a Ukrainian colonel was absolutely true, on the basis of supposedly-hacked-by-Anonymous emails. They are not in the least bit willing to listen to any suggestion that Obama isn’t on the verge of sending some B2s to turn the Kremlin into the next parking lot for the Berlin Brigade (if you'll excuse the contextually-inaccurate historical reference).

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report

  • AndrewH,

    I'm not sure why you brand Pilger's article bizarre. Anyone who's been following events via non-MSM channels will have heard this take, along with some pretty compelling evidence.
    I also didn't read anything in his article that branded all the actors as Nazis, and it's hard to deny that the far right has had a conspicuous presence throughout.
    I was (unusually) right with Bob Jones in his Herald column on the absolute tripe that the MSM has been delivering around the Ukraine. Cartoons with Putin as Hitler?? puleeease..

    Wellington • Since Nov 2008 • 33 posts Report

  • Dave Guerin, in reply to Chris Waugh,

    While Nigeria isn't Francophone, the countries surrounding it are, and Boko Haram melts across the borders to avoid Nigerian pursuit.So getting them cooperating could help reduce Boko Haram's effectiveness - although last week's agreement was mainly "agreeing to talk" AFAIK.

    Welington • Since Nov 2011 • 7 posts Report

  • Graham Dunster,

    Auckland • Since Nov 2009 • 184 posts Report

  • AndrewH,

    "Take a look at the graphs in the Vox article. He has real problems."
    Yes, it does look that way. I read last week that Russia, China and Iran had been discussing non-US dollar-denominated trade (again). The triumphal Vox article doesn't consider the possibility or consequences if the economic incentives to those parties were sufficient to make that actually happen.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2008 • 33 posts Report

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    but there’s a determined section of the population who are convinced that the Americans are itching to get into a full-scale tanks-vs-tanks hot war with the Russians.

    When to all appearances, the opposite seems to be the case.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report

  • Stephen R, in reply to Russell Brown,

    but to claim as Pilger does that they're all neo-Nazis is palpably untrue

    My Ukranian Co-worker (his Mum still lives in Kiev) said some of that comes from the second world war. The Ukranians who looked at Stalin and went "He's scary" joined up with the Germans not because they were Nazi's so much, as they really didn't like Stalin (much like the Finns in the Continuation war really). The impression I get is that decision has meant the anti-Russian side in Ukraine has been tarred by the Russians as Nazis ever since, and some of them might indeed have self identified as Nazis (Although it's not clear to me that this is because they actually agree with anything Hitler did other than shoot Russians).

    Wellington • Since Jul 2009 • 259 posts Report

  • Chris Waugh, in reply to Dave Guerin,

    All true, but I'm wondering more if it fits into a wider pattern, what with recent events in Mali, violence in Centrafrique, and Chad never seems entirely stable. I don't know, when I get time I need to sift through the Francophone newspapers. For now, real world work calls.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 2401 posts Report

  • bob daktari, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Take a look at the graphs in the Vox article. He has real problems.

    all of which are current, short term (probably and potentially) and suggest not a lot except to reinforce the authors case - again all short term, theres a much bigger picture and longer game at play... the Ukraine is but a part - Russia's ongoing involvement in Syria is also one example

    The USA most certainly doesn't want a war and will do everything in their power to ensure this doesn't happen as will Russia...

    auckland • Since Dec 2006 • 540 posts Report

  • Bart Janssen,

    It's worth remembering that the USA has financial problems of its own. A shooting war with Russia would be horrendously expensive and financially the only likely winner would be China.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Shoosh, Bart, enough with the logic and sensibility.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report

  • Russell Brown,

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report

  • Ana Simkiss,

    This bit from the LRB suggests the real risk is of civil war in Ukraine and that Putin may find it hard to avoid getting involved if that happens.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/2014/05/12/tony-wood/lurching-towards-civil-war

    Freemans Bay • Since Nov 2006 • 141 posts Report

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Ana Simkiss,

    This bit from the LRB suggests the real risk is of civil war in Ukraine and that Putin may find it hard to avoid getting involved if that happens.

    That makes a bit more sense.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Russell Brown,

    There are certainly some bad actors in the Ukranian government, but to claim as Pilger does that they’re all neo-Nazis is palpably untrue. Letting elections take place seems appropriate.

    I tried very hard not to godwin the thread on the first post .... but "nazi" would have been the word my friend used (and remember he comes from that part of the Ukraine)

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report

  • jb,

    sheer slacktivism; an easy way for people feel they’re doing something material by retweeting a hashtag

    Now, *that's* not v. nice. And I always thought that you and David got along rather well....

    a.small.town.in.germany • Since Jan 2007 • 86 posts Report

  • Matt Crawford,

    Pilger comes across as completely off the reservation - it's like the decades of investigating atrocities perpetrated on the 3rd world by the 1st has rendered him unable to perceive anything but.

    Every year the American historian William Blum publishes his "updated summary of the record of US foreign policy" which shows that, since 1945, the US has tried to overthrow more than 50 governments, many of them democratically elected; grossly interfered in elections in 30 countries; bombed the civilian populations of 30 countries; used chemical and biological weapons; and attempted to assassinate foreign leaders.
    ...
    Washington's role in Ukraine is different only in its implications for the rest of us. For the first time since the Reagan years, the US is threatening to take the world to war.


    It's just bizarre to think that Pilger doesn't see an issue with a country dispatching special forces into a neighbour - such as Russia sending in non-uniformed Spetsnaz troops into Ukraine to start this crisis. The evidence that these were elite forces is pretty well documented - obviously extremely well trained (no slouching, fighting, stealing, or unordered shooting) and extremely well armed - the weapons and equipment they were pictured with, like holographic gun sights, are normally restricted only to a nation's elite unites.

    The scary thing about this is Ukraine is the only ex nuclear power in the world, disarming post-USSR. Its these accords which Russia have clearly breached - "to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine." Nato really set them up here - despite Pilger's fantasies there was never any chance of Nato ever intervening right next to Russia. Wikipedia has a page!

    The message going out to the head of state of every other nuclear or aspiring-nuclear power is loud and clear: get the bomb and never give it up for anything.

    Wellington • Since Dec 2006 • 58 posts Report

  • Steve Curtis, in reply to Matt Crawford,

    bizarre to think that Pilger doesn’t see an issue with a country dispatching special forces into a neighbour – such as Russia sending in non-uniformed Spetsnaz troops into Ukraine to start this crisis.

    The New York Times has walked back from its article, seemingly planted by the US Administration, that Spetsnaz had been identified in Ukraine.

    http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/aftermath-of-ukraine-photo-story-shows-need-for-more-caution

    Pilger seems to just be saying the US has its own people there as well.

    I wonder too how the Cubans feel about the US presence in their country, the result of an invasion, where they never went fully home

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 314 posts Report

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    I tried very hard not to godwin the thread on the first post …. but “nazi” would have been the word my friend used (and remember he comes from that part of the Ukraine)

    From what I can make out, the term would certainly apply to some of the nationalists, but not the people currently in charge. I think it's quite rational to be afraid of the people who actually are neo-Nazis, who have some power in the new environment. But Putin has given them their chance.

    It's easy to forget that these were the people who risked their lives to encourage their Parliament to send Yanukovych packing in February. Depicting the whole thing as a neo-Nazi putsch, as Pilger seems to, is just weird.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report

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