Hard News: Shihad are like the All Blacks, only more reliable
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I think the "evil China" polemic is driven by ignorance. I was staggered by a letter to the editor of one of our metropolitan newspapers. it had been prompted by news of the possibility of Chinese nurses working in New Zealand hospitals - one of the possible consequences of the China-NZ FTA.
It expressed a fear that Chinese nurses would be coming from nursing environments where human rights abuses are routine. It really bothered me that someone might actually think this - that Chinese patients would not be accustomed to being healed in a Chinese hospital, that they would be abused in someway and have their organs removed.
This could possibly extend to other professions. Doctors, language teachers, martial arts tutors - what if they all come to NZ and started committing human rights abuses as they would in China?
My four year old goes to a Chinese-English language preschool. One of the teacher's comes from Beijing. She's a brilliant teacher.
To me that letter was a denial that people from mainland China could possibly share a common humanity with us. And that's what bothers me.
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Don, we're hosting the Rugby World Cup in 2011 and you think we shouldn't have expressions of nationalism?
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Is there any indication that foreign nationals are going to be relocated for this?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/world/asia/24china.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1
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... doesn't seem positive or nearly enough to see our grandkids right. We can't just hitch and hope for the best, I strongly feel we need to observe, disseminate and in certain cases adopt, (thinking mainly economic policies)...
Yeah, I agree -- hitching a ride sounds too passive. And it's effectively what we've been doing for years in establishing a burgeoning economic relationship.
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Is there any indication that foreign nationals are going to be relocated for this?
Making it hard for foreigners will hurt China. Just like the US making travelling there such an ordeal has hurt its inbound tourism, conference business, etc.
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Don, we're hosting the Rugby World Cup in 2011 and you think we shouldn't have expressions of nationalism?
I found myself at an ANZAC dawn parade here on the 25th (my daughter was asked to raise the NZ flag) which was a fairly embarrassing, and perhaps inappropriate, display of NZ nationalism in this country where Commonwealth forces fought for the Dutch in 1945.
Seeing an Indonesian choir performing God Defend NZ in perfect Maori was quite surreal.
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Don, we're hosting the Rugby World Cup in 2011 and you think we shouldn't have expressions of nationalism?
Not in China I don't.
Simon, there is also a not so subtle difference in being asked to represent your nation at a generous event of remembrance and other forms of nationalistic posturing.
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Simon's too modest to link-whore, so here is his excellent post on his Anzac Day in Bali.
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Thanks Russell, and of course, Simon.
I was at the Massey memorial on Saturday looking at all the wreaths. The was one from Indonesia, as well as Germany, China, Iran, Cuba and the French sailors whose ship was tied up right next to the Homegrown venues.
It's a funny world.
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there is also a not so subtle difference in being asked to represent your nation at a generous event of remembrance and other forms of nationalistic posturing.
Oh trust me, there was a bit of nationalistic posturing that morning too, especially when the subject of serving Australian troops came up (East Timor was, however, side stepped) but I really was more intrigued by the pure oddness of the whole thing. It really was.
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a perhaps inappropriate, display of NZ nationalism in this country where Commonwealth forces fought for the Dutch in 1945.
The Indonesians are gracious people, and Australia's support for Indonesia's independence might nullify any antipathy to ANZAC Day somewhat.
Your observations on the oddness of the occasion are welcome. There's always something about seeing a culture transposed into a strange place, with minimal adjustments.
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Firstly apologies to Simon if I accused him of being brainwashed (I can't find the post - any chance of a My Posts function?). I meant bedazzled maybe, as I am when I go to the USA (where I see all the clever, innovative things that are going on and miss the bad stuff - although they have the airports to remind one that all isn't well).
Secondly, some stats:
- Chinese overseas students were 130,000 in 2002 and went down slightly after that. I make that 0.01% of the population, so 0.1% of the cohort would seem at least in the ballpark.- Chinese per capita GDP is $4,580 (2004) - NZ is $23,200
I think Charles is being more transparent about this than others - we are nice to China because we want them to buy our stuff. However, as someone who works in the technology industry, my experience has always been that if people find the things you make are good value, they'll generally buy them, irrespective of political attitudes.
(I'd suggest also that political pique often fades - this has certainly been the case with the US, who seem to have given up their hissy fit with us over the nuclear ship ban. (possibly because after Brash lost, they realised it wasn't going away).
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On the subject of Anzac celebrations I find it amazing (and a bit cheering) that the Turks are happy to host hundreds of Aussies and Kiwis. We did after all try to invade their country.
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Me too - From the shots of the site it was crowded and apparently is a real mission to get to.
Why not take on the role of the "Landing Craft" and view it from a yacht?
As luxurious or authentic as you want - no crowds to deal with and sound carries really well over water - smoke a cigar and play Churchill - well you couldn't do much worse.
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- Chinese overseas students were 130,000 in 2002 and went down slightly after that. I make that 0.01% of the population, so 0.1% of the cohort would seem at least in the ballpark.
Your assumption that these are are .01% elite is the part that gets me. Sorry, but I find that slightly, I guess the word is, xenophobic. You make the assumption that NZ can offer a better alternative to a country that as I pointed out, has more students doing doctorates right now than students in the US tertiary system, that builds, without a lot of external help, the sort of infrastructure projects that NZ can't even conceive. God, NZ can't even pull together a half decent railway system...China can.
- Chinese per capita GDP is $4,580 (2004) - NZ is $23,200
Firstly that is four years ago..almost a lifetime in China. Secondly I'd argue that $4500 would buy one a hell of a lot more in real terms in China than $23,000 would in NZ. Thirdly, applying a figure like that to a country the size of China is silly. My comments applied to Guangdong Province as I said.
There is no question that the nation is undergoing an economic revolution and I guess the question is whether it's pulling the population along with it. The evidence seems to suggest it is, albeit unevenly.
I'm not trying to be rude, although I guess it comes across that way, but I'd rather be bedazzled than happily sitting in comfy, naive, self righteousness which I'm applying to lot of folks, not necessarily you.
But that said I'm also aware that the reality of China, or at least the part of it I saw, and others, including those who live there and have posted here, and the many folk I know who do business there, is perhaps somewhat at variance to the country I've seen portrayed by some.
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The Indonesians are gracious people, and Australia's support for Indonesia's independence might nullify any antipathy to ANZAC Day somewhat.
Agreed, George. I might add that there is a sense of rapproachment with Australia here, after some not so good years.
I also agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment expressed by both yourself and Deborah. There is the odd righteous war but most of it seems so pointless. Can anyone explain to me why WW1 had to be fought?
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Can anyone explain to me why WW1 had to be fought?
As any fule kno: Archie Duke shot an ostrich because he was hungry.
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http://chinadailyshow.com/?p=22
anyone could make the same mistake...
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xenophobic
I just think that Chinese people have the same rights to democracy, free expression and national self-determination as New Zealanders. I don't see that as xenophobic. I'm interested in why and whether it seems that a lot of Chinese people (like those who marched in Wellington) appear not to want such things? Plus why there are others (such as the Tibetans) who do?
The GDP figure I gave is PPP adjusted. I looked up the 2006 figure and it's $7,800 PPP ($2,034 nominal). Growth is 11.4%, so I think they are still a bit shy of NZ. No doubt Guangdong is doing much better and has far surpassed NZ, but I was considering China as a unitary state.
I disagree with the premise that personal experience is the only way to understand a country. Having said that, I will get to China at some stage. I would have gone to Tibet a few years ago, but the only way to get there from Nepal was in an organised tour, and there were a lot of Tibetan refugees in Nepal who were quite opposed to people doing that, which I respected.
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Can anyone explain to me why WW1 had to be fought?
All the European powers were fairly authoritarian imperial states ruled by small and wealthy elites (this varied between Britain, which was probably the most democratic and Russia, which was about the least. None had universal suffrage). They also had a strong sense of misplaced patriotism and national self-righteousness.
This meant that rather than resolve the various national disputes by peaceful means, as liberal democracies might, the nations were forced into an escalation which led to total war. (Technology having changed the dynamic of military confrontation).
New Zealand got involved because it considered its vital national interest to be served by maintaining as close ties as possible to a distant imperial power.
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Hi Rich,
just a couple of suggested amendments to your figures - Asian student numbers studying in New Zealand peaked about 120,000 in 2003/2004.
But the Chinese student component of that was 55,000. Right now the numbers are down to about 30,000. Remember there are not insignificant numbers of Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Indians, Vietnamese etc also coming here to study.
There are several reasons for this - the high dollar, the improving capacity of Chinese educational institutions to provide an English language education, bad publicity over a number of high profile crime cases (think of the Wan Biao suitcase murder) and intensifying competition from other Western destinations such as Australia, the United States, Canada and the UK.
Also on another note, I take it that the 0.1 percent figure ostensibly only refers to those coming to New Zealand (much smaller if you adjust it as above). But if you look at it globally, there are hundreds of thousands of Chinese students studying around the world. That's hundreds of thousands of 'patriots' that can be mobilised to take part in counter demonstrations to the pro-Tibet lobby.
This has been a really enjoyable discussion.
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BTW I really enjoyed those links posted by Mark. Very funny!
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Charles: those figures (from the linked paper) were for all mainland Chinese students studying anywhere outside China.
I think that some if not most students of Chinese ethnicity studying here are overseas Chinese from Singapore, Malaysia, etc. Plus the figure for Asian students no doubt includes Russians, Turks, Israelis and the like.
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Apologies, Rich. Ive just skimmed through the paper. Interesting. I must say my inclination is to think that total Chinese students studying overseas would be higher than 120,000. Those figures are nearly four years old so it would be interesting to know what that combined figure is now.
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