Hard News: Narcissists and bullies
727 Responses
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Kracklite, in reply to
Sadly, a lot of the pressure on other kids to fall in line seems to be coming from young women.
Terrible, but not a surprise to me, I'm afraid. A friend of mine once said that the cheapest way to oppress people is to get them to do it to each other.
I received a demonstration of that when I received an essay from a female Somalian refugee defending the practice of of female "circumcision".
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Terrible, but not a surprise to me, I’m afraid. A friend of mine once said that the cheapest way to oppress people is to get them to do it to each other.
Sounds awfully like the bad old tactic of divide-and-rule. Or in the words of a notorious railroad baron, "I can always hire half the working class to kill the other half."
I received a demonstration of that when I received an essay from a female Somalian refugee defending the practice of of female “circumcision”.
It's rather unfortunate that many of those faith-based types out there who express concern about FGM would otherwise believe that women should be "barefoot & pregnant". They'll only be concerned about womens' rights if it happens to involve "the other" women.
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Richard Aston, in reply to
Just listened to the podcast of ‘Willie and JT’ I’m not going to link to it, but All the trigger warnings.
I'm with you Alex
I just listened as well as Willie and JT grilled that girl. Their basic message was, you girls know those boys, you get drunk at parties what do you think will happen.
Basically like its your fault. -
Martin Brown, in reply to
“Sounds awfully like the bad old tactic of divide-and-rule. Or in the words of a notorious railroad baron, “I can always hire half the working class to kill the other half.”
Was that Fay?
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
passing this
When that bill's passed, it might stop evil trash from boasting on Facebook (and maybe drive them to a sleazy offshore site beyond NZ jurisdiction).
It would also allow much of this and other discussion to be suppressed. Currently, Russell has little to fear from e.g. a libel suit, as it's an expensive and complex process, and the cops are unlikely to bust anyone for incitement to assault the thugs (unless one of them gets murdered, in which case I suspect a few Facebook posters might get a knock on the door).
With the new law, one of the thugs, or their parents/lawyers only has to send a complaint to the hosting company, and they're faced with a choice of removing the content or risking future prosecution - and with little ability to determine the status of complaints, it's likely that any complaint will lead to a takedown.
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Kracklite, in reply to
divide-and-rule
No, it's not divide-and-rule in the sense of setting one side against another. Instead, it's worse: it means ensuring that there is no half versus another half - rather it means escape being defined as ostracism.
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Kracklite, in reply to
Er, replace the "No" with "Sorry". I don't mean to be adversarial.
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There's a good discussion initiated by Karol on what Rape Culture means on http://thestandard.org.nz/its-not-just-about-cyber-culture-judith/ by the way. I suppose trigger warnings apply as there are some trolls.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
When that bill’s passed, it might stop evil trash from boasting on Facebook (and maybe drive them to a sleazy offshore site beyond NZ jurisdiction).
While I agree with your sentiment, isn't Facebook already a site beyond NZ jurisdiction?
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Chris Waugh, in reply to
Thanks Rich. Am I right in halfway remembering the implications of this bill have been discussed in a Legal Beagle thread? Running out of time to go search for it, though, I'll have to remember to check later.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
jesus wept.
Just listened to the podcast of ‘Willie and JT’ I’m not going to link to it, but All the trigger warnings.
Okay, I'll link to it. It's here.
Feel free to leave a comment letting Radio Live know what you think.
But PLEASE don't listen to it if you're vulnerable. It's the most disgusting, inhuman extended act of victim-blaming I've ever heard.
The only upside is that the girl they're purporting to interview is an absolute champ.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
The thing is, there is no easy fix for this, not even close. And I’m really, really leery of “but this piece of legislation will fix it!”, which, let me clear, I’m really aware is not what you were saying. I just want to make it icy-clear that the problem is not cyber-bullying. It’s rape culture. It’s rape culture that made these men think it was okay to brag about what they were doing, regardless of the format they did that in.
True. But social media is currently enabling some really awful intimidation of kids who are trying to talk about this. There's a reach to this that is actually new. NB: I know more than I can talk about on this, and it's fucking awful. It's evil.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Was that Fay?
Goes back much further, in fact it reputedly originated during the Great SW Railroad Strike of 1886.
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I blame that Elvis Presley all that hip shaking. Next thing you know we got damned Hippies. All that flowers and lovin stuff, gave War a bad name.
Damn kids today, dunno what the World commin to I tell ya.Sound familiar eh?
With the ease that you can find hard porn on the net its no wonder some kids will think its normal behaviour.
Our respective generations parents were possibly as disgusted at our behaviour, somehow this seems much worse.Dunno what the World commin to I tell ya.
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anth, in reply to
Perhaps a little more impetus to passing this? I’m sure the lawyers hereabouts could have a field day picking that bill apart, but it at least seems like a good and necessary step forward
Perhaps, or perhaps it'd just provide a way to inhibit discussions like this one.
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
They have a corporate presence - to what degree that brings them under NZ law I don't know. Both Google and Yahoo have been successfully sued for libel in Australia.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
But PLEASE don’t listen to it if you’re vulnerable. It’s the most disgusting, inhuman extended act of victim-blaming I’ve ever heard.
Well, I can't say you didn't give fair warning. Fucking hell. I thought very seriously about laying a complaint with the BSA, but I honestly don't think those two mutants or their corporate enablers give a tinker's cuss and, honestly, I don't have the spoons to listen to it again.
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Kracklite, in reply to
OK, I managed a couple of minutes of that and no more. Jesus Aitch Tap-Dancing Christ in a Side Car. And that idiot Shearer was thinking that "JT" would be an "asset" to Labour?!
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Danielle, in reply to
Sadly, a lot of the pressure on other kids to fall in line seems to be coming from young women.
The last time we talked about this, I think it was Megan who noted that of course other women reinforce these sorts of norms, because it makes it easier to believe if you do all the "right" things, and dress the "right" way, and go to the "right" places, it will never happen to you. It's just an illusion of control, but I can see why girls might cling to it.
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Martin Lindberg, in reply to
It’s the most disgusting, inhuman extended act of victim-blaming I’ve ever heard.
Wow. That was utterly depressing. Those two are such pathetic fucks.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Feel free to leave a comment letting Radio Live know what you think.
They shut off the comments before I'd posted :-( But at least there are 37 comments all dedicated to telling them they're wankers.
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Tet Yoon Lee, in reply to
IANAL, but my understanding is yes. That said, as you’ve said earlier if the victims can’t compelled to testify my expectation is it’s likely to be an advantage to defence anyway without a key witness rebutting their claims.
Even with video evidence, unless you’re able to convince some other witness perhaps one of perpetrators to testify, your case will surely fail. I remember reading somewhere someone saying you won’t need to even identify the victim as she’s underage but we’re talking about 14 year olds. So without an identified victim, all the defendant will have to say is she was a young looking 16 year old and your case will go out the window. Random boasts aren’t likely to count much (otherwise a lot more teens will be at risk).
Perhaps a case involving someone who was clearly intoxicated would work but I don't think any prosecutor will call a case like that relying solely on video evidence without the victim testifying as a strong case. (In any event, as I've already suggested I'm pretty sure the defendants will be able to compel the victim to testify in such a case.)
IMO this is a key point some people may be missing, there are victims here and there’s little chance anything will happen without it significantly affecting them.
Or in other words, I’m with Lucy here. As much as we be disgusted by the actions of the people in the group and want them to be stopped, we should not forget the victims and what’s good for them.
While I’m sure the police have made mistakes, I’m not sure things are better now that the public got hold of it (although I have heard it suggested the police threw it to the media in frustration). People may celebrate the effect of the outcry on the perpetrators, but let’s not forget, it’s likely the victims are also suffering. Since while the general public are behind them, I fully expect some members of their peer group both male and female, who’s opinions at this stage of their life, I expect they care much more about, are not, even though they didn’t even do anything to cause this outcry!
Fingers crossed things will eventually pan out as positively as possible in a situation like this. I do seriously hope the victims have the right support at this time.
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lynne walker, in reply to
Yep scary stuff. I listened to Karyn Hayon Radio Live last night and she was clear and got it and was strong about that, though some of the others just don't- JT and co are quite extreme in their ability to completely not get it. What kind of dad's do they make I wonder.
Makes me feel quite sick actually, like really sad. -
More lowlights of the perpetrators’ social media, including further frank admissions of rape.
It does seem that some girls participated voluntarily. We will all have our own thoughts about that, but group sex, even rough, transgressive group sex, isn’t rape.
Thing is, there were plenty of cases that were clear, calculated rape. We can’t just move on from this.
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As anyone who has been involved in a trial of sexual crime can tell you, it is a long drawn out and traumatising experience. Repeated police interviews, as sensitively as some police may handle them, are traumatising for victims. The process of coming to trial takes _years_. Cross examination is an often days long ordeal where the objective of highly skilled defence counsel is to show you are lying, mistaken, or deluded. Conviction rates are low. The fact is that these young women's choice to not provide evidence on which a criminal charge could be laid is rational. It sucks, hard, and I'd be happy to see it change, but from my experience (on the sideline, I'm fortunate to say) it would be unfair to judge them on that decision.
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