Hard News: Let's lynch the liberals!
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heck, it's all just waaaaay too paranoid for me - all i wanted to do was have a free discussion with you about how you understand, in what exactly you think consists, this animal 'awareness' of mortality..
Ah yes, you and your entirely good faith arguments:
i think its too much whisky!
If you have ever wondered why people scream 'troll' in your presence, your habit of delivering insults of varying degrees followed by "but I just wanted to pursue an intellectual point with you" is a big part of it. Also, you posting a wall of text about whether animals are aware of big-m Mortality (as opposed to nearby death or slaughter), when Islander had already expressed uncertainty on that anyway.
Islander's typically glib talk of 'species' and 'behaviours' sounds to me like nothing so much a person desperate to deny, semiotically at the very least, the awesome burden of her humanity at any - or possibly the least - cost, and grabbing at the lightest scientific straws available to he/r at every moment..
Your argument that possible awareness of death in animals = inherent 'semiotic denial' of one's humanity is ridiculous, and it's rather rich for you to cry about clutching at scientific straws given your history here.
pollywog sounds like real fun - tech got us into it tech gets us out of it - seems plain as day aye, ah, but PA personnel are a whole lot more religious than they know/care to let on!
Aaand a final, groundless accusation of closed-mindedness on the part of most everyone here. I'm not sure why Russell allows you to keep hanging around , but barring significant change in your behaviour I hope your work here is now done?
Thanks.
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I'm not sure why Russell allows you to keep hanging around
A combination of trying to mediate things via personal contact and repeated re-registering under different names.
But I'm over it now. Conseismal, or whatever your name actually is, just fuck off. You clearly can't manage respect for others and you are not welcome here.
Try and maintain some dignity by leaving the party when you're asked to.
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That was a crazy read Sam F, just out of interest how do you keep track of all this stuff?
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acutally it is hard to keep track of the topic in this forum. but if it is about climate change, then i want to doubt that:
tech got us into it tech gets us out of it
because we have been running down this road for a whil and considering that first world culture serves as a role model in living standards, we should consider a change in our own culture towards living conditions with less environmental impact.
If we were somehow able to terraform other planets, surely we'd also be able to re-terraform the one we already inhabit.
terraforming is about making a planet inhabitable and not about changing the landscape of a suitable planet, which anyway would only be possible in unpopulated areas and thus not really effectively.
awareness of animals regarding mortality is another interesting topic. i am not sure if animals are aware of the fact that they would die by aging, but some of them are quiete likely to do so. the slaughterhouse situation though is a little bit different. i would say that animals can smell and feel what their conspecifics go through in such a place.
the trulling debate though seems to be a little bit out of control. I don't know about the history of your discussion, but i can't see much of the humility that nz is famous for in your argument.
just fuck off
there is not much dignity in that statement.
and before you say to me that i should mind my own buisness, you should be reminded that this is a public discussion, even if it sounds to me more like a boozed fight in a run-down pub.
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Sam F: firstly - human beings are really, really not best understood as corresponding to critters 'behaving' under some supposedly disinterested scientist's scrutiny (yet the word continues to intrude) - human beings are sign-bearing creatures of _intention_ ..and all the multifarious levels of same that this entails.. so when you combine 'significant' with 'behaviour' i have to _wonder_ what you can possibly, possibly have in mind! (THINK about that for a second!)
so you, Sam F, really believe you have justified Islander's quoted blurting...? (oh no, you chaps just never blurt, now doooo you...)
i do thank you for the link back to that warmest broth of a time when many here were willing to kick, it seemed, the most gentle and humorous of ass..
..reading through those earlier comments i am struck by the manifest presence OF no less than a sweetly purring respect, running as it clearly was through all of them - even though the real point-of-contention was never directly addressed or confronted - the point that HIV science has never, to this day, met the established criteria for isolation of its prize 'exhibit'..
Mr Brown - MR BROWN! (how close you came to ending up as a lovable T-Shirt!) your disingenuousness above takes me by terrific surprise!as you will (i hope) recall, in our 'personal contact' i asked you, repeatedly, for a good working definition of this idea most cherished by PA - the "post which is made in good faith" This definition you elected never to supply me with; and so did i have to continue with my blind experimentation! And assume that so many fiendish shibboleths may be what comprise its real meaning!!!
what is religious in its nature can never, ever be examined too closely. Sam F's sentiment that what is 'religious' is merely so much shop talk for 'closed-mindedness' ensures that, for the time being that PA has got its work cut out for it..
it is all very well to be asked to "leave a party" but a party in progress do i perceive here NOT - 'tis more like trying to crack open a Gemeinschaft with a fake ID - even when i used my real name once and was roundly rejected!!!
this just to begin... for i do not rest easy with the notion that one 'belongs' in such and such a blog or not - taking, as a 'renegade christian hellraiser' as i do the world as one single scene, curiously wanting forever for a new scapegoat, i can only refuse at every point to rest my 'case' -
you should be reminded that this is a public discussion
It really is not. Glad to see you've resorted to sockpuppets now - double the fun. Or not.
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stick with the points at hand, GT - PLEASE?
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Not remotely interested in whatever point you are failing to express, sorry.
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Thank you, Russell, for fostering and protecting a community of heart and mind. Wonderful few days.
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It really is not. Glad to see you've resorted to sockpuppets now - double the fun. Or not.
i wonder how a forum can be called public adress, when it is not public at all? but i could register here without any problems, so i thought it is.
if you want to insult me you can come over and see me (i live in wellington as well), but a forum is not the right place to do so.
nz is still a free country and i don't see the point why i should not participate in the discussion.
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nz is still a free country and i don't see the point why i should not participate in the discussion.
The fact you could register for it does not make it a public forum. You either live by the rules of the community or will be asked by a moderator to stop posting - and you "started" by belittling everybody else, in typical fashion. That said, my tolerance of trolls being what it is, I bid you goodnight.
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pollywog/Ben.Shirmer & - o dear- lil p thrice over eh?
I will now completely ignore you & your sock puppets forever.
Tautoko Sacha - Russell makes the community happen & work & continue, and -when the parasites leave- it is a vibrant intellectually fruitful place - thank RB!
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Hi Ben: rereading your original post, I'm sorry you got caught up in the mess above. Please do stick around.
conseismal's continuous re-registration often means that when a new member pops up in the midst of an argument involving conseismal, they get mistaken for a sockpuppet of him/her. FWIW I don't think pollywog is one of these, nor you.
My post earlier was basically rattled off in anger at what I saw as (yet another instance of) baiting and belittlement followed by faux-offended appeals to Honest Debate and Free Speech. I'm sorry to have added to the generally edgy atmosphere which has hung over the forum a bit lately, which I think Sacha was getting at - I tried to be as civil as possible given the crap I was responding to. Maybe just I need to take a deep breath and learn not to respond in these cases at all.
Okay, I'll leave it at that, I think.
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I want to publically distance myself from the connections of me and other personalities that you establish in here.
As a German I know where talks about parasites end and so I decided to comment on this page only, when some people can stay on topic.
If there is a moderator in this forum, who you obviously know. Let him just look at the internet protocol and check the IPs and verify that the accused persons are different.
I just thought, that there could be an interesting discussion about sustainability going on and I am very interested in this topic due to my education as architect.
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Hi Ben: rereading your original post, I'm sorry you got caught up in the mess above. Please do stick around.
Thanks Sam, at least sombody in this forum that can see how it is.
I am looking forward to a nice discussion with you and anybody rlse who wants to talk and discuss with me.The post above was written before I read your posting.
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pollywog/Ben.Shirmer & - o dear- lil p thrice over eh?
I will now completely ignore you & your sock puppets forever.
i am neither of the other two but by all means please DO NOT respond to my posts as its plain to see your judgement and motives are suspect and have nothing of value to add anyway...k thx bye troll.
then i want to doubt that:
tech got us into it tech gets us out of it
because we have been running down this road for a while and considering that first world culture serves as a role model in living standards, we should consider a change in our own culture towards living conditions with less environmental impact.
i was accosted by some nice middle aged/class greenpeace lady in town trying to get me to sign the 40 percent traget reduction thing and i said, i dont think it'll make much difference nor that Key would take note anyway and she said, at least they're doing something.
i had to laugh inside thinking, yeah you just increased your carbon footprint by cutting the trees to print the paper you want me to sign and used more petrol to get your crowd down here for a protest that will change nothing.
it's nice that she changed her culture and all but for every one of her, there is a few thousand others globally taking up the slack in polluting/ trying to raise their standard of living
so Ben...while i applaud your sentiment for a culture less intrusive on the environment, i feel its just too damn late. we've gone so far down the technology road we simply cant turn back.
i equate the climate crisis to a cancer. if you were diagnosed with cancer as the earth has, you cant just change your diet and mindset then expect the cancer to go into remission and if it does thats fine for the short term but its still there. the answer is in the research and development of new drugs or in the earths case, radical new energy sources.
climate damage was well done, even by the time of rolling back to a time of lesser emissions and you'd be hard pressed to expect businesses to care now and invest billions to clean up their acts when most are struggling.
and in no way does the west have the right to limit nor enforce living standards to whatever it sees fit based on impact to the environment. We made our bed now it we have to lie in it and deal with the fact that others want as flash a bed as we have.
God, we really are sheep primed for slaughter arent we and some of us are no more aware we're being led to the slaughterhouse than sheep in general ?
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i share your opinion that we went down the road to far. i just see the problem in a much wider context. if people would start rethinking there own life they would probably even start thinking about the bigger picture.
if you are confident with how it goes, that's alright. every one of us can make the decision he wants to.
for me it is also a problem of scale. you can argue on every level about what is going on. i don't see the benefit in polluting the space we inhabit, so that we will get sick.
the earth itself has a great capacity to recover, but not humanity. the question is not really if the planet or nature survives, but if mankind is willing to survive.
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Back to the original post, but it appears that Mr Trotter has racheted up the rhetoric in regards to how he views the "liberal left"- which in turn has led Grant Robertson to respond- in pretty good faith and with none too little dignity, too. It's making for interesting reading.
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Ben Shirmer, my apologies. When lil p gets going, everything in the neighbourhood seems to get contaminated for me.
Matthew Littlewood - *very* interesting set of posts...reinforces why self & widespread family generally vote greenish/left but almost never get involved in the party politicking (our only involvement is to make sure everybody entitled, is enrolled to vote, and assist in getting people to voting stations.)
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if people would start rethinking there own life they would probably even start thinking about the bigger picture.
i don't see the benefit in polluting the space we inhabit, so that we will get sick.
When your sole focus is to survive from day to day, you cant even see the big picture and its not like some have the luxury of choice as to whether to pollute or not. For too long the west has benefitted from polluting the space others inhabit so they get sick instead. Now you cant blame developing nations for modelling their behaviour on us and suddenly hold them to a different set of standards.
I just have more faith that the solution lies with a technological genius for our time coming along than the ability for governments to police big business.
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My theory is that Lucy is the first visible manifestation of some emergent Iain Banks-style AI, like HAL, but nicer.
How about GERTY? GERTY's nice. "I'm here to help you, Sam. That's what I do." See Moon
So, Lucy, are you a sock puppet for GERTY? If so, then that's one I can welcome.
Anyway, First Life snatches me away for a few days and all the trolls break loose... Conseismnal, Clive, Dubmugga... Jeeze, what a collective waste of oxygen...
Islander, if you're ever in Wellington, please let me know.
I just have more faith that the solution lies with a technological genius for our time coming along than the ability for governments to police big busines
Hmph. I have no doubt that technology will deliver some surprises, but that is assuming that we can continue technological development... and that is dependent on economic circumstances, and as is often pointed out, the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology , a rather... um, contingent proposition. We still have no guarantees that science and its application, technology, will deliver exactly what we ask for.
Aside/sidebar. Yes, Clarke said that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - but then, stories about magic tend to emphasise the limitations, the rules, the obscure clauses and the prices that have to be paid. Beware. Personally, I'm not going to resign myself to a life in a grass hut, a meal of cold lentils and prayers to Saint William Morris, but I'll take the "least worst" solution of nuclear power and my (hypothetical) childrens' life in a managed "garden Earth" knowing that it still has a severe price. Fingers crossed...
Technology might "solve" our immediate problems, but whatever happens, it will never be business as usual ever again. It never is.
(Exit with ringing of bells, "The End is Nigh" sandwich board and iPod)
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Kracklite - I'll happily let you know -
(folllows, carrying "Nigh Is When?" sandwich board and my trusty Gen5 iPod nano)
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(If we ever get a chance, look at the complete fucking mess the first five episodes of Dollhouse are. In effect, they're five increasingly annoying pilots in a row. The show get a lot better when Whedon -- who assumes that not every viewer has ADHD -- is firmly in control.)
Not seen it, alas, 'cos I have neither reception (Aro Valley - that explains everything) nor Sky/whatever, but alas, I've read that Dollhouse has now gone the way of Firefly
And compared to the major disappointments for fans of SF TV this year
Ah, well, is Sturgeon's Law any consolation?
All I can say is: Can't wait for Caprica and the debut of the Eleventh Doctor.
Amen. Fingers making non-Euclidean hyperbolic knots for Caprica . At least I am certain that Bear McCreary's score will be good.
Oh, and it will have James Marsters (Spike) in it.
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Ah, well, is Sturgeon's Law any consolation?
It has to be, but I was seriously pissed off by how bad FlashForward was because it had everything going for it: An intriguing premise based on a damn good novel by Robert J. Sawyer (that rare 'hard' SF writer who can also manage non-cardboard characterisation), better than average cast and a network that put some serious money and promotional muscle behind the pilot. But the couple of episodes I've seen are just meh...
Amen. Fingers making non-Euclidean hyperbolic knots for Caprica . At least I am certain that Bear McCreary's score will be good.
Oh, and it will have James Marsters (Spike) in it.
Jimmy playing a charismatic terrorist leader who might just have another agenda in play. Typecasting much? :)
I'm even more excited that Buffy/BSG-alumni Jane Espenson is on board as a producer and head writer. Still think it's going to be a hard sell, because Caprica looks like it's going to be a character based drama that's tonally and stylistically a very different beast from Galactica. Espenson herself has said she's had a lot of fun writing comic beats into Caprica -- something you really couldn't do on a show about a handful of survivors of genocide running for their lives. Apparently a recurring character is Baxter Sarno -- the Caprican equivalent of Jon Stewart who has Daniel Greystone's messy business and personal affairs firmly in his sights. :)
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Elsewhere, is Goff dumb as a sack of hammers or just a liar?
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