Hard News: Launching into raunch
96 Responses
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I'm even a little prudish about the likes of High 5 - their music is no more annoyingly saccharine than any other kiddie/tweeny stuff, but they way they dress, I think, is inappropriate for young kids - girls in particular.
I never thought I'd see the day I defended Hi 5, but...
...as a regular vewer (my 3 yr old son loves it) I think that the producers go to great lengths to keep the girls' clothing decent. Every mini skirt has tights or leggings. Every potentially skimpy top has a more demure top underneath, or a sports bra engineered for zero inappropriateness.
If you think Hi 5 is dodgy, put it up against the Sugarbabes "Push the Button", aimed at kids not much older. That one makes my skin crawl.
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The prison psychiatrist asked me if I thought sex was dirty. I told him only when it's done right.
Part of the thrill of porn (and certain other things) is the sense of transgression. Possible conclusions:
- once everything is permissible, porn will lose its savour
- in the meanwhile porn has to get more and more out there to retain its appealReturning to the "as a father" thing, I was far more offended when Farmers (Farmers!) were selling girls t-shirts emblazoned "If you don't like what I'm wearing feel free to undress me". Buying such a garment for your 12 year old girl seems like a mild form of child abuse to me.
Little girls like sexy moves and sexy clothes. They don't see them as sexy - they see them as pretty and grownup. They happily sing the lyrics because they think they're about milkshakes. It's adults and their broader awareness that turns those things into (inappropriately) sexy.
*toddles off to find copy of Shulamith Firestone and tend vision of post revolution polymorphous perversity*
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How many people do you know who have shot someone? Or done a forensic examination on a cadaver? Or stepped through a stargate to an alternate universe?
Apart from the Stargate bit, that's just crazy talk!
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I'm really uncomfortable with what seems like a growth in the "girls gone wild" type porn, when there's a pack mentality and also lots of booze involved. That seems pretty borderline consentual when the girls are often about to pass out.
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Maybe what you meant was that actual feminist theorists with something to say about contemporary culture seem increasingly underground, because domininant media voices pretty much just mock them when they say perfectly obvious things like: 'Sportscafe is kinda dumb and sexist.'
If only the paper about Sports Cafe had been so, er, prosaic as to actually say "Sportscafe is kinda dumb and sexist" ...
As for saying "I don't buy either extreme of the argument" - yes, the reality is "prosaic" and variegated. That does not mean that the reality (of both porn and public sexualisation of women) is not deeply and inextricably embedded in power relations. Eliminating that analysis through characterising it as either side of a political-theoretic 'extreme', and relegating everyday manifestations of capitalism appropriating our mammary ducts to the 'trivial', doesn't do women any favours at all.
I'd have appreciated a better look at what young men and women do think about it though (rather than basically gasping but it's not like the 80s!), because there does seem to have been a gear shift in attitudes towards sexual display that doesn't answer to either pole of dehumanising/empowering feminist critiques.
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Russell
Until young men have sex they won't know what it is like. This is true whether or not they see porn. How is having no idea better than having a fantasy idea? They are the same, in fact. All your criticism leads to is an argument for better education. No problem with that idea.
Yup, I watch music videos. And even when I was 5 I could see they bore little resemblance to reality. I don't think children are particularly unable to recognize fantasy when they see it. If you have a gripe, it is that those kids might like that fantasy, and also act on it (2 quite different events). And I have to ask you, if they do like it, when do you think that happened? When they watched the video? Or were they already inclined to think hos shaking their booties were mighty fine?
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I'm really uncomfortable with what seems like a growth in the "girls gone wild" type porn, when there's a pack mentality and also lots of booze involved. That seems pretty borderline consentual when the girls are often about to pass out.
The "Spring Break" thing? Yeah, that's pretty creepy - but then I suspect that kind of creepy behaviour existed before it made its media debut.
That touches on the element of real-life behaviour of young people in America. You've got one lot swearing chastity and the other arranging anonymous hookups via MySpace. Peaches Geldof (no, really) presented quite a good TV documentary on American youth and emerged from it clearly dumbfounded by both sides.
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Staying away from the feminist arguement (because quite frankly I'm out of my depth on that one)
My friend Jose and I had a very interesting discussion with Dylan Horrocks (the comic book writer/artist) about his Tijuana Bibles (if you what they are, look them up on Wikipedia, I doubt they’ll be on Conservapedia).
He was saying how porn was an art form, like anything else that is in a creative medium. Much like regular film - both indy and mainstream - porn is made through a creative process in which artists behind and in front of the camera decide what the audience will like and react to. And like all art (take music for example) it tends to suck (no pun intended) when it sells out.
This maybe why most people who like television as a medium HATE reality TV as it has no artistic value. The parallels with porn are easy to make. this also links to the "girls gone wild" type of stuff Joanna mentions above.
Now to see if this comment will make it through the filters at work…
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... reality based, intelligent, left wing progressive types who wince at the exploitation of a whale construct a mental fiction about the exploitation of often the most vulnerable young women in the porn industry ...
But is gay porn different? Is dyke porn (which has existed for a long time) okay if only lesbians look at it? If a suburban couple want to publish pictures of themselves for other such couples to get horny over, are they oppressing themselves? Is it different if a woman takes self-portraits and sends them to I Shot Myself? I'm just not sure there's one answer for all of it, or that the unusual things people do can never be consensual.
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Now to see if this comment will make it through the filters at work…
Best start packing up your things ...
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katherine ryan did a really good discussion on this last week on radio nz national (gross new name! sack the marketing people...) still on line at http://www.radionz.co.nz/nr/programmes/ninetonoon/20070221
the most telling comments came at the end, when the interviewees were talking about how the skimpy clothing was restrincting the ability of girls to play in the playground and participate in sports. so let's not pretend that this whole thing doesn't have a practical and everyday consequence.
also remember seeing in the news last year about someone who is taking "body image" sessions at the request of parents of teenage girls, so that these girls become comfortable with the bodies they have. tie this up with the level of eating disorders, and the increase in people subjecting themselves to sometimes risky plastic surgery, and i would say there is definitely a problem here.
there was an excellent interview on radio nz's "ideas" programme on 8 october 2006 which covered some of these issues, especially the effects of porn on women. unfortunately, it won't be on their website anymore.
the other major problem i have with this is the difficulty of talking about the whole issue. i remember a principal of a girls high school complaining about a billboard near her school that she objected to (in 2005 i think?), and she got universally panned for speaking against it. to me, it seems that the "feminist" wing of our society has been very effectively silenced in recent years, either by the "freedom of expression" lobby or the "political correctness gone mad" lobby, or a couple of others i can think of. the fact that any dissent of the status quo is automatically labelled as "feminist" in a derogratory sense, not a complementary one, and any debate is quickly shut down.
tze ming, i so agree with your points around power and control. i recall (and can't remember the name of) an editor of an australian women's magazine who was fired for a single "big is beautiful" type issues. she wrote a book about it, and i may be simplifying grossly, but it seems that the advertisers of weight loss products etc basically pressured her out of a job.
so, i think that it is very difficult for women to dissent from the current restrictions around their physical appearance and i'm really pleased that the APA have come out with their report (and the SST i guess for picking it up), cos the result is the freeing up of public space for many women to express how they feel...
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the other major problem i have with this is the difficulty of talking about the whole issue. i remember a principal of a girls high school complaining about a billboard near her school that she objected to (in 2005 i think?), and she got universally panned for speaking against it.
Was that the Vegas Girl sign on K Road? You could almost make a heritage value argument for that. But what surprised me was the public clamour in favour of Boobs on Bikes last year. I personally couldn't see why a creep like Steve Crow got to promote his porn show in such a fashion.
On the other hand ... I recall dissing the conservative city councillors who got upset about bare boobs and butts in the Hero Parade years ago. Was that different? So this is why I'm conflicted ...
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3410,
They happily sing the lyrics because they think they're about milkshakes. It's adults and their broader awareness that turns those things into (inappropriately) sexy.
How about when the Pussycat Dolls sing "I know you should be fucking me"?
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merc,
There's no sex in their violence.
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When my daughter was five she would have had to ask me what that meant. And I might have explained that "fucking" is a rude word for sex, and that a lot of grown-ups enjoy it, but that it's nothing a five year old needs to know about. (No need to explain sex - midwives' daughters learn about that very early).
However since the Pussycat Dolls are shite the odds of her hearing it in my house are quite low.
And yes, anjum is on to something. In fact I think the feminist-marxist analysis might be that yer "raunch culture" is simply another example of women being co-opted into policing their own oppression by creating peer pressure to conform to a particular kind of sexiness. Or to put it another way, Russell's claim that there is some sort of middle ground is simply a prevarication to avoid the hard conclusion that the so-called middle ground is simply the more acceptable face of an underlying nastiness.
I'm not sure what I think about all this personally, except that in practise I'm policing my child's clothes until such time as she can rebelliously insist on her own.
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merc,
So, should females box, play rugby and is women's tennis just porn? Seriously, don't mention the females and boxing, rugby thing at the only dinner with the nieghbours you're ever going to get invited to.
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Whenever conversation turns to porn, I feel compelled to mention Ali Davis' True Porn Clerk Stories - the best writings on the subject ever, in my barely informed opinion.
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So, should females box, play rugby and is women's tennis just porn?
No - it still matters that Lindsay Davenport's got game and Anna Kournikova never did. But athletes of either sex can be pretty good to look at, and that is one of the reasons people watch.
There was a time when you couldn't safely say that a female athlete was both good at her job and pretty fine. I guess now that Daniel Carter's getting about in that tight jersey and appearing on giant billboards in his undies, it's a bit different.
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merc,
And Beyonce on the cover of Sports illustrated. All the lines are getting blurred, but the kids know the difference between cynical skank ho and right-sexy because they are being told so every day. My daughter and I had an interesting debate on why Emo is banned from her school. She was for the ban, and me, well you know, I remembered Goths...
Remember The Saffy factor will always kick in, hippy kids don't usually become hippy's and hippy's were mostly trustafarians anyways. -
three things.
1. I have a daughter and while there are things that I wouldn't like her wearing, there are also things that other parents would ban, which I have no problem with. At some levels I think I'd even see harm in restricting the freedom of the child. Should we set up laws based on my personal threshold? Works for me.
2. What if porn was actually representative of sexual behaviour? Would people watch it? I find that I'm not intrinsically against porn. I just don't like all the instances I've encountered.
3.Spanish-American War, Conservapedia "The war between America and Spain for control of Cuba, the Phillipines and other Spainish colonies, which America, being a Christian nation, won, while Spain, being a Catholic country, lost. "
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My daughter and I had an interesting debate on why Emo is banned from her school. She was for the ban, and me, well you know, I remembered Goths...
Emo is banned? Realllllllllly? Who exactly sets the definition?
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I never thought I'd see the day I defended Hi 5, but...
...as a regular vewer (my 3 yr old son loves it) I think that the producers go to great lengths to keep the girls' clothing decent. Every mini skirt has tights or leggings. Every potentially skimpy top has a more demure top underneath, or a sports bra engineered for zero inappropriateness.
If you think Hi 5 is dodgy, put it up against the Sugarbabes "Push the Button", aimed at kids not much older. That one makes my skin crawl.
Part of my objection is that Hi5 are close to indistinguishable from the likes of the Pussy Cat Dolls, stylistically speaking, but I take your point. I'm pleased that so far my youngest is more than satisfied by Dorothy the Dinosaur and the Muppets (her favourite being Animal and Rita Moreo singing Fever... Rita's not terribly demure in her attire I gotta admit...).
Your other comment about tights and short skirts is fair also however I wonder if you saw any news regarding this research (http://www.netball.asn.au/_uploads/res/1_9668.pdf) by Netball Australia which found that many women were turned off sport at a young age because of the clothing they were encouraged to wear - not just the beach-volley ball crowd either, Netball and Basketball uniforms are all tight-fit too.
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From Conservapedia's article about Wikipedia:
"The administrators who monitor and control the content on Wikipedia do not represent the views of the majority of Americans, and many are in fact not American."
Not American! How dare they!
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There is no page titled "vietnam". You can create this page.
For more information about searching Conservapedia, see Searching Conservapedia.
Well if that isn't denial I don't know what is.
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this one from the main page got a laugh from me
Did you know that faith is a uniquely Christian concept? Add to the explanation of what it means, and how it does not exist on other religions.
yep, putting the mental in fundamental.
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