Hard News: Fix up, young men
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
Let’s address the male abuse of women issue but let’s not pretend it is just young men being the problem here.
Well, I guess it’s something that it took until page six before we got to the “hey, women abuse men too” post.
I typed a long and sarcastic comment here, but deleted it, because what's the point.
I've wondered too about the band stopping playing until the problem is addressed, mostly because I assume that given they're generally playing on a stage, they might be able to see stuff happening that's not visible to the people in the audience except to those right next to it. But of course they won't see everything either.
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Something bad/different/whatever may well have happened, but the way that men treat women at shows isn't the thing that's new or changed.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
It’s why many of the people I know are seething with rage on their private twitter accounts right now. It’s why a Laneway-loving guy who thought he was a feminist dateraped me because obviouslty he’s not one of those people. .
How women are treated, by everyone, is EVERYONE’s responsibility. And the very best first thing you can do is actually listen to what they are telling you about their own experiences.
Oh shit, Jo, I'm really, really sorry about that. I'm just trying to convey how people in my culture are feeling angry about it.
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Meanwhile, on Facebook, from Jacinda Ardern:
I am quite used to feeling angry (it’s an opposition thing) but this post though, it really got me. It talks about what happened to the journalist who was interupted during a live feed at a music festival, but it also describes an ‘older woman’ who was grabbed and bullied in a really appalling way at the same event. This isn’t about music festivals, it’s not about alcohol, it’s about the basic principle of respect, and more explicitly, respect for woman. A huge part of me wishes that I was standing there, in that moment. I am not sure what I would have said, but I can only hope that one, two, maybe a whole crowd of women and men might have joined in and called out that kind of behaviour. But that didn’t happen. We have a long way to go, and we should all be mad about that.
And Northern Bass promoter Gareth Popham:
Does anyone have a pic and names of the two guys that did this to Richie’s girlfriend? Sorry if they are already online but am currently in Malaysia and not online much. Will happily ban them from Northern Bass and any events Fuzen Entertainment run as this sort of behaviour is disgusting and needs to be stopped!
Maybe we’re getting somewhere here. I would really like more music people to come on board with this.
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nzlemming, in reply to
I would really like more music people to come on board with this.
I'm really hearing tone deafness, here.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC!
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Well, I guess it’s something that it took until page six before we got to the “hey, women abuse men too” post.
Whoa. If Cam has, as on older man, been “spat at, pushed and abused” by young women, surely that’s not great either. There’s a difference between whataboutism and saying what has happened to you personally.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I’m really hearing tone deafness, here.
IT’S NOT ABOUT THE MUSIC!
Apart from the people who run the events and can take meaningful action, you mean? Isn’t this exactly what we’ve been talking abut upthread?
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raena, in reply to
Except that post is clearly whataboutism.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
’ve wondered too about the band stopping playing until the problem is addressed, mostly because I assume that given they’re generally playing on a stage, they might be able to see stuff happening that’s not visible to the people in the audience except to those right next to it. But of course they won’t see everything either.
It is difficult. A fight is easier to identify, harassment less so. You'd imagine Courtney would have had something to say, had she been aware.
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nzlemming, in reply to
Apart from the people who run the events and can take meaningful action, you mean? Isn’t this exactly what we’ve been talking abut upthread?
You're talking about your events being tarnished and how to prevent that. The women on this thread (and some of the men) are talking about this being only one facet of the wider issue - sexual intimidation and lack of respect for women. I think your priorities are a little skewed.
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Lately this country feels like it did in the 1970s.
My memories of many gigs in the 70's, mostly punk and idie shows, were that generally women and girls were looked after, protected often some what over zealously by boyfriends and/or male friends, most of the tough guys had a code of respect towards women at gigs. I can remember other men stepping in when a man was being abusive to his girlfriend at the Windsor Castle. Although I am saddened by the fact that the young women with these arseholes didn't intervene, it is entirely a male problem and it is our responsibility as older men to step up and educated these stupid, arrogant young men when ever we see this behavior . It is simply not acceptable anywhere, anytime. I feel deeply ashamed and sorry for Jean and the other women exposed to the worse side of masculinity , because real men just don't do that shit. -
Russell Brown, in reply to
Except that post is clearly whataboutism.
It could be seen as such, yes.But I guess it feels different depending on your perspective.
Deborah Morris-Travers said this today on Twitter in response to the original post:
Well said. I am big into music, too, and as a 45yr old hv been subject to intimidating comments from younger men & women.
I guess there are different ways of seeing this incident.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
You’re talking about your events being tarnished and how to prevent that. The women on this thread (and some of the men) are talking about this being only one facet of the wider issue – sexual intimidation and lack of respect for women. I think your priorities are a little skewed.
They’re not “my events”, I’m not the promoter. We’re talking about concrete steps to stop this happening at music events. I think that’s a laudable aim. And, again, it's what we were talking abut upthread.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
Lately this country feels like it did in the 1970s.
You're not the only one who's said that to me recently ...
My memories of many gigs in the 70’s, mostly punk and idie shows, were that generally women and girls were looked after, protected often some what over zealously by boyfriends and/or male friends, most of the tough guys had a code of respect towards women at gigs. I can remember other men stepping in when a man was being abusive to his girlfriend at the Windsor Castle.
Those are the kinds of memories I’m speaking from too. Not pretending it was rosy, but that this behaviour wasn’t acceptable, and that scenes where it was were the opposite of us.. But I’m a bit tired now and and I guess I should come back and talk about it in the morning.
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Another angle on this, it's fucking enraging seeing women in the media being told to "toughen up" or get out of the profession when subjected to male arsehattery. Again.
It's 2016, boys, and a woman's place in the media isn't writing about scones and this season's hem-lengths. Just stop it.
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Joanna, in reply to
because real men just don’t do that shit.
What exactly is a real man? Because it appears to be again with the othering. I appreciate it is hard to accept that people in the same circles as you might act like total trashgoblins to women, but it absolutely happens.
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raena, in reply to
It could be seen as such, yes.But I guess it feels different depending on your perspective.
Well yeah, my perspective was that this was a conversation about men who abuse women at festivals, right here in the comment section of a story asking 'young men' to 'fix up' in re women's treatment at festivals. But wait! We can't possibly have that conversation without a nice little detour into What About The Mens. Of course not.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I'm guessing an older person read the original incident, rightly or wrongly, about being about elder abuse. You might disagree, you might be right, but I don't think it was malign or derailing. People come here from a range of places and we try and respect them all.
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Alfie, in reply to
People come here from a range of places and we try and respect them all.
Amen.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Another angle on this, it’s fucking enraging seeing women in the media being told to “toughen up” or get out of the profession when subjected to male arsehattery. Again.
It’s 2016, boys, and a woman’s place in the media isn’t writing about scones and this season’s hem-lengths. Just stop it.
Even though I’m of the testosteroned gender, the Laneway dicks remind me of the snob yobbos who gave me hell in secondary school.
And if/when the Return of Kings rabble come to NZ, here's the perfect welcoming gift.
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bob daktari, in reply to
I’d love it if some of the great dudes here could organise a strategy between yourselves for some non-violent support for women at the next gig you go to.
I keep thinking about what you say here Lilith and the many other woman voicing their views here, on twitter and facebook.
We had a long discussion at the dinner table about this discussion, the types of behavior and how its always been around - two gig going oldies and two young teenage boys, one of whom has started attending some bigger shows (with parent(s)). The boys I expect to both be regulars at shows as they grow, they will be given all the guidance to not be "that guy", I hope they both have the strength of character and empathy to not be.
To a degree I am still in denial, partly age and partly my gender. I know this sort of thing happens to woman far too often, I still can't comprehend just how common it is though as that just boggles my brain - not disputing that it is so, just can't comprehend that so many of us men are just so fucking horrid to woman and that it seems to be getting worse not better.
Other than talking to the youngsters I can and vowing to step in I still don't have a strategy but I do know I can't leave it to others to do the right thing.
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Lucy Telfar Barnard, in reply to
I’m guessing an older person read the original incident, rightly or wrongly, about being about elder abuse. You might disagree, you might be right, but I don’t think it was malign or derailing. People come here from a range of places and we try and respect them all.
That's all well and good Russell, but...
I've read in other threads on this sort of topic, women saying they felt uncomfortable commenting. I've never felt it myself before now. We've had an observation a few pages back that this had started to turn into a bunch of men talking to each other, some of them ignoring the voices of women in the thread. When I looked, it looked to me like there were still women talking, and there were again afterwards. But this morning I have my own brief taste of not wanting to comment further. Which I will resist.A "whatabout..." post doesn't have to be malign, or even derailing, it just has to be there.
Older age is one of the many excuses made for lack of awareness in men. At some point/age that excuse expires.
I don't think any woman reading this thread would think it was about elder abuse rather than women abuse.
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this doesn't help either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11584263A flagship anti-violence initiative that counts the Prime Minister as an ambassador is without funding for the coming year after Government support dried up.
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Jean’s just gone off on holiday, but she has passed on her thanks for all the support, and lamented the state of the nation and the lack of respect shown to women and minorities by its leaders.
Music is one way to see beyond this and is why I love it so – moving and dancing to sound with masses of similar people can be so uplifting and so universal.
I have been an active feminist for nearly 50 years (you know I get the gold card this year!) and I will not be giving up the fight for equality of respect for all peoples any time soon.
Her friend Shelley (she of the handy gut-punch) is also grateful for the support and says she is now feeling more positive about going to gigs again because of it.
This makes me very happy.
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Hilary Stace, in reply to
No. Very easy but ill-informed to make assumptions about how rosy things were in the past. But think of the state of the laws and public discourse at the time (1970s)and sexual violence was barely acknowledged as an issue. Why did women academics fight so hard to establish Women's Studies? Why were those Women's Conventions so popular?
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