Hard News: Feminist as crazy old man
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Now don't get technical on us.
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it becomes a question of whether it's as good as it can be rather than is it good enough, and sidetracks things a lot.
And perhaps we can also respect a woman's choice without the home visit from Mr./Mrs./Ms. Judgy-Pants.
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Lots of women don't or can't have children. I'm pretty sure I was a woman before I had my baby.
I'll have another crack at that. I responded to JT's claim that gender roles are entirely a social construct.
I mentioned parenting because it seems to embody gender roles on which biology has a very significant impact.
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Anecdotally, Kyle, I'd say those class divisions you describe, are the product of shoddy education.
Well quite possibly. But they're still there.
The point about rape of men is important, as subsequent posts have shown.
I don't buy that Paul. It's an important point if someone said "only women get raped" or "men shouldn't have any interest in the 'victim side' of rape". But no one did. Just that it was a feminist issue.
Given that Ben called himself a male feminist, and no one seems to have jumped up and said "men can't be feminists", feminist != women. And people noted that it wasn't exclusively a feminist issue, just one for feminists, which they've made a bunch of progress for society as a whole over the past few decades.
And perhaps we can also respect a woman's choice without the home visit from Mr./Mrs./Ms. Judgy-Pants.
I had a similar discussion with someone about childbirth choices - commenting on women choosing to have elective c-sections rather than give birth 'naturally'.
My comment here is the same. As long as women are well informed by medical professionals, the rest of us can back off. A doctor or midwife or lactation consultant is going to inform a new mother of the benefits of breastfeeding and do their best to make it happen for the mother and child, after that the mother and baby and family will try and do their best to get by and their decisions are theirs.
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And perhaps we can also respect a woman's choice without the home visit from Mr./Mrs./Ms. Judgy-Pants.
I don't think Isabel was judging, at all.
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I mentioned parenting because it seems to embody gender roles on which biology has a very significant impact.
I thought you were supposed to be working? :-)
when it comes to gender roles, men and women are exactly the same, apart from women being able to gestate, give birth and breastfeed.
A male/female couple have a child through a surrogate lending her uterus to the cause. The childminding arrangement is that the male stays at home and is the primary caregiver, while the female stays in her job. Who's the mummy and who's the daddy of this child?
ETA: Yeah, I don't think Isabel was being judgmental either.
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A male/female couple have a child through a surrogate lending her uterus to the cause. The childminding arrangement is that the male stays at home and is the primary caregiver, while the female stays in her job. Who's the mummy and who's the daddy of this child?
I don't see Russell's basic point as particularly controversial, regardless of the counter examples and definition debates (and some exceptions). The fact that men and women have different 'bits' which are pretty important in the 'having children and making them breastmilk' lark is not a social construct. There's some biological things going on there.
That has led to lots of social constructs, tied with some other things going on in our society, but it's not a social construct in itself.
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That has led to lots of social constructs, tied with some other things going on in our society, but it's not a social construct in itself.
Phew.
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Phew.
This is the last time I'm getting your back though. Next time you'll have to take on Giovanni by yourself.
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But it's tied to social constructs to such an intimate degree, wouldn't you say? Because I can guarantee you that the female in the example I've just given would be expected to have a special unique maternal bond to the child, be a Mummy in other words, whereas the male will be sometimes resented, sometimes put down, sometimes treated as if he was being the ultimate hero for doing what female Mums have been doing for millennia.
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The fact that men and women have different 'bits' which are pretty important in the 'having children and making them breastmilk' lark is not a social construct. There's some biological things going on there.
Which is why, when pushed, I tend to define "equality" not as everyone having the same stuff but as everyone having the same rights to have their needs met. Our sex, gender, age, (dis)ability etc all affect our needs but should not affect our value or access to the things we need.
Also - totally intended to give information without judgement above (though I do judge social constructs and professional people who tell women to breastfeed and fail to provide the back-up to actually allow them to do so)
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It's not tautological, the distinctions of which have meaning without which the conversation is lost.
Heterosexuality is a modern construct from 1892 and it varies considerably in todays society (not to mention the Greeks), so much so the Arabs often look gay to my eyes, with all of the kissing, hugging and hand holding, but that's not the case at all.
Russell if your going on parenting gender roles, that raises issues for solo, & same sex parents and of course the glass ceiling.
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But it's tied to social constructs to such an intimate degree, wouldn't you say?
Yes, I would say, very much.
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Excellent. Let's find a different way to disagree now.
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Heterosexuality is a modern construct from 1892
What did we do before that?
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Phew.
This is the last time I'm getting your back though. Next time you'll have to take on Giovanni by yourself.
I can see this really fixt it, not! :)
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I don't think Isabel was judging, at all.
Certainly not, and apologies to Isobel for giving the impression that I thought she was. But I know a woman who would have loved to breast feed her baby, but the double mastectomy that saved her life put paid to that. I can understand why she get extremely pissy about having her parenting choices judged in a manner that also dredges up the emotional turbulence of her cancer.
What did we do before that?
Trout.
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Trout.
Now who is being all Judgy-Pants ? :)
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Now who is being all Judgy-Pants ? :)
More like, "Who really needs to accept that The Middleman is not coming back, and move on?" Last week's geek-i-licious episode involved an outbreak of trout-craving zombies, leading to a vast conspiracy to take over the world with a (literally) fishy energy drink... Well, you had to be there.
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Judgy-pants often turns up anyway when the topic of breastfeeding comes up. Being judged for your decisions because they impact on the next generation - now that's getting closer to a universal female experience :-/
On the subject of elective caesarians (another judgy one), one of the things that gets people going is the word "elective". It doesn't mean what many people think it means: too posh to push. It means that a caesarian is decided upon before the birth, generally for medical reasons like the baby's in breach position, as opposed to done in an emergency setting. I don't know if anyone keeps data in NZ on non-medically indicated caesarian. Some US doctors once (maybe still do, I don't know) promoted routine use of caesarians as more "civilised" than letting nature take its course.
One thing I've learned in the last year is that you need a whole lot of information, which most people don't have until they need it personally, before you can competently engage with the politics of childbirth. But there's a big strand of "these women have all these choices now and are doing stupid things with them, it must be stopped!" in those debates. On the other hand, there's an equally annoying "what do we need all these experts for, they're only out to oppress you with their opinions, it's my choice," vibe out there too.
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Well, you had to be there.
Yes thanks but I'll stick to the " Mad Men" series, which all in itself leaves a rather fishy energy drink kinda flavour for todays times. Ah, cigarettes, sex and the sixties, all wrapped up in chauvinism.
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While on the topic of social constructs.
Russell, your use of the words spazz out and spazz-o-meter - are they teenage boy linguistic denigration from a similar source to 'retard'? In which case they could be constructed as offensive to certain people . -
Sorry, should it be construed?
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Russell, your use of the words spazz out and spazz-o-meter - are they teenage boy linguistic denigration from a similar source to 'retard'? In which case they could be constructed as offensive to certain people .
I was actually hoping that they would be so totally removed in meaning from any offensive context that they wouldn't be offensive. I'm sorry if it was offensive to anyone.
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Yes thanks but I'll stick to the " Mad Men" series, which all in itself leaves a rather fishy energy drink kinda flavour for todays times. Ah, cigarettes, sex and the sixties, all wrapped up in chauvinism.
Has a serious screaming at the television moment on Sunday. Avoiding spoilers, I don't think I'm the only one who was muttering: "Betty -- see that door? Get on the other side of it, and don't look back." The Middleman is a lot more fun, in a high fructose empty calorie geeky kind of way, and it's bloody sad it didn't get picked up for a second season.
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