Hard News: Debating Clydesdale
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For the record, Dr Clydesdale has previously published reports critical of business immigration from Asia. I don't see that as a major issue, since most immigrants from those nations are filtered through the points system or tertiary instutions.
With Pacific immigration, I agree that the issue's too big to be swept under the carpet. And with the annual Pacific quotas there are genuine questions to be asked about quality vs quantity.
But the last time the drawbridge was raised shut - including attempts to de-naturalise 'overstayers' with the dawn raids - the issue went to the Privy Council in 1982, which ruled in favour of Samoa in regards to the right of NZ citizenship.
Even the Western Samoa Citizenship Act 1982, which restricted that right to those already in NZ, didn't close the floodgate.
And the Cook Islands, Niue & Tokelau have always been under direct control by NZ (and previously Samoa), so their people have NZ citizenship of right.It's easy to pull away the welcome mat or impose de-naturalisation. It's quite another thing to navigate the litigation minefield that would probably result.
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Simon please read page 57, Table 2.05.
http://www.stats.govt.nz/NR/rdonlyres/A152478B-1AE1-437D-BF5A-7EB941A0AC7D/0/58522SNZlayoutffWEB.pdf
In short it says workforce participation for Pacific Islanders is higher than that of Poms (of working age).
62.4% Poms working in NZ
63.2% PIs working in NZ
70.1% NZs working in NZThis is why Clydesdale has shot himself in the foot. His stats were years out of date, & he has applied them wrongly.
You might want to listen to his defense again as there is not much of a basis to it. He has discredited himself.
$5 says he doesn't speak at the conference in Rio. It's funny how sometimes conferences run late, hmm.
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Dubmugga and Cheyenne,
While you spout anti-racist rhetoric, you insist on, respectively, calling one of the greatest European thinkers of the last millenium some academically entrenched Euro guy, and Poms.
Should we be calling Samoans Fobs? I don't talk like that, why do you?
I wonder who the racists are here. Really.
Cheyenne, once again, I said: let's forget the race issue, and agree that we should restrict immigration to NZ by asking that only people who are here to contribute, rather than bludge, enter. Whether they be Poms, Fobs, or whatever.
Let go of your precious racial persecution complex, you racist.
I have worked, lived and been friends with many people of many races, creeds, ages and orientations; so can't be called prejudiced.
I don't want to see the country brought down by poor immigration policy, especially when the most educated and highest contributors generally leave for a while or for good.
Drop the race card.
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"you insist on, respectively, calling one of the greatest European thinkers of the last millenium some academically entrenched Euro guy, and Poms."
Sorry, I meant at the end... and calling the English Poms.
I am not a Pom any way. I was born here. so were my last five generations.
I am as indigenous as you.
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Ixnay on feeding the olltray, people.
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he appears to have no knowledge of scientific method
Matthew Arnold called economics "the dismal science" because of its materialistic reductionism, but I feel that the label is more appropriate because the scientific methodology is dismal.
From what I gather, Clydesdale is not unique in his ineptitude and airy dismissal of inconvenient academic standards. His comments that he tailors his writing for his audience of businessmen (and therefore "socialogoists" have no right to critique his sociological tracts), does nothing to alter the common perception that economists are all too often intellectual prostitutes who get paid to say what their clients want to hear.
A joke told about cosmologists is that they put the error bars on the exponents - but I'd say that at least they know that they have to.
It could well indeed be satire - the humour is endless. "Er, that needs more research" and so on. Ringo played chess and therefore teams should be monocultural, Bach has too many notes...
And the Bach... which Bach was it? P.D.Q.?
Some of it's not funny at all - "team fit" is a euphemism for "Irish need not apply". It does converge too well with the rhetoric of contemporary neofascists who aren't of course, oh no not at all, not in the least bit racists, but know, well it's been scientifically proven, that foreigners find it hard to integrate and don't work efficiently with people who don't share common values and approaches...
Racists seldom think of themselves as racists (unless they are openly fascist), usually they cloak their thinking, even from themselves, in euphemisms and evasions: look, its just obvious innit, like there's this study; someone has to say it/speak up and no-one else (except for the thousands of foaming talkback callers); it's nothing to do with race - it just happens to be characteristic of one group who happen to be brown/yellow/lavendar with green spots - there're these statistics; I mean some of them are good - one or two - I've known them, friends of mine, exemplary chaps - why can't the rest of you be like them?; now you're calling me a racist so I'm a victim now; it's time for you lot to stop being victims and take responsibility... I'm not a racist, because... because... because I'm not!
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"My Ph.D thesis is about Stephen King's influence on Shakespeare"?
Bah! Everyone knows that Shakespeare based The Tempest on Forbidden Planet.
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The Kim Hill interview was incredible. It was surreal. Can this be true? Can Massey University have employed such a fellow as a senior lecturer? I felt sorry for him - he was way out of his depth.
Funnily enough I did a Massey University extramural course a couple of years ago and was lambasted for each misplacement of a comma or semicolon! And that was a level one paper - not the work of a lecturer with a PhD putting his work forward for publication. He laughed off the question of his poor proofreading when Kim asked him about it.
I WISH Kim had followed up on his answer to the following question.
"Why did you send the paper out to the media?"
He said, "Because I care about my country."
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Massey University have employed such a fellow as a senior lecturer?
Sadly, yes. According to an acquantaince (no, for legal reasons related or not - probably not - to a financial settlement, that person is most definitely not me, oh no), one HoD gave a presentation to faculty, er, sorry, "staff" of their "research". It consisted - I kid you not - entirely of uncaptioned photos of toilet signs around the world. No explanation was given, just cackles of childlike glee.
I think the fa- staff just decided that they should be put in a pot and watered regularly.
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Worse than that -- Clydesdale's quote was actually "... too many black notes"
Reminds me of an episode of The Goodies - Tim, Bill and Graeme toured apartheid-era South Africa and came across a pianist - all of the keys on the piano were segregated, black keys on the left, white keys on the right. Meanwhile, at Zebra crossings, black and white people hopped across the road, landing only on their racially-appropriate stripes.
taking his performance art to parliament some day soon...
He almost is - he's advising an MP who is himself surely an example of installation art that critically deconstructs bourgeois assumptions of animation in an interactive situation. I mean, has anyone else noticed that Lockwood Smith is in fact a Thunderbirds puppet?
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I have worked, lived and been friends with many people of many races, creeds, ages and orientations; so can't be called prejudiced.
Honest, Guv'nor, my best friend's Maori/PI/gay...... We're all prejudiced, mate, in one way or another. Man up.
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Let go of your precious racial persecution complex, you racist.
I have worked, lived and been friends with many people of many races, creeds, ages and orientations; so can't be called prejudiced.
Oh give me a break, Simon. Your general tone would suggest otherwise but for what its worth, try inserting human everytime you mention mankind. We have a human race. We have a christian doctrine for the "creeds" you seem so aware of."ages and orientations" Sorry,I don't think that gives you a broad outlook of the human race which I believe you think you have.Perhaps an ignorant one which is often the case.So opportunities abound an' al' 'at!!
I don't want to see the country brought down by poor immigration policy, especially when the most educated and highest contributors generally leave for a while or for good.
See now, there goes the tone again,(not very nice is it?)Most educated....highest contributors...where is your evidence? People do follow money around the world hoping to get some, and that does include many coming to NZ hoping to get some.However, many also come for the lifestyle.Different cultural backgrounds make up the tapestry that is the fabric of our unique society, and immigrants have contributed to all of that .So a better understanding of different cultures may go a long way to a better society we can all call home.(In my humble way)
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I mean, has anyone else noticed that Lockwood Smith is in fact a Thunderbirds puppet?
Yep! I keep thinking "Team America" though.:-)
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Jackie - so who are you prejudiced against?
It seems you can't go and defend a guy for saying we should not keep bringing people into the country who have no intention of working or skills, without being called a racist.You people ban anyone saying anything critical of Polynesians, yet you label all white people Colonial Scum.
Reverse racism anyone?
And Sofie - who ever suggested we not have a variety of cultures on our country? It's not the same thing to say that we should have a right to choose who comes into the country so that we actually gain from them joining us, rather than have them pull us down.
Thus, the criteria for entry would be skills and intention to work, not race.
It's easier to call someone racist or un-PC, that way you don't have to debate the details.
So here's a taste of your own medicine: stop being so politically correct and look at reality.
If someone ever said we should not allow a certain race into the country, I did not hear it said.
If they did say it, I would at least want to know why. e.g., maybe 100 % of that race are cannibals or something. That would then be reasonable. This was a hypothetical statement, for those who don't know what that means, look it up.
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I heard Clydesdale say "soci-you-ologist", which I wondered was perhaps a derisive variant.
too many black notes", i.e. musical notes that are failing to contribute to New Zealand's economic growth.
Well-spotted. And his report (now that I've forced myself to read most of it and the associated peer reviews) is riddled with assumptions about what contribution means, and about who contributes. It's sloppy for any discipline that claims to be academic. Regurgitating old-fashioned stereotypes is not going to help Clysdesdale or anyone else "care about my country" no matter what they believe needs to change (and note the difference between "my" country and "our" country).
installation art that critically deconstructs bourgeois assumptions of animation in an interactive situation.
Both hilarious and chillingly accurate. Saw the Thunderbirds stage show years ago and immediately thought of our Lockwood. Post-structurally of course.
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...you insist on, respectively, calling one of the greatest European thinkers of the last millenium some academically entrenched Euro guy,
Elvis was a hero to most but he never meant shit to me...
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Dub - didn't Public Enemy say that?
I heard they apologised for it years later; realised they were too harsh on him.
You fellas havea good time insulting white people while attacking them for daring to challenge brown people.
Peace out.
PS - if you were the colonisers, I think you'd be worse.
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There's a difference between insulting a group and lobbying to prevent them from being part of the population.
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Now if we were talking about targeting consequential social investment or some other solutions to current disparities then that might be a useful discussion.
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I have a good time insulting western colonial culture and attacking it when it promotes racism and bigotry under the guise of academic study. Couldn't give a shit if they were white, black, green or yellow.
Fix up, look sharp
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Lockwood Smith is in fact a Thunderbirds puppet?
further to your theory lockwood used to teach english at my school some 30 years ago and he looked pretty much the same then, no a hair on his head moved then and hasn't seemed to move since. Suspicious to say the least.
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Just so you guys know, there is a mass of people who think what I think.
" think that this shows the worst aspect of political correctness: the attempt to kill an argument or discussion by the use of labelling, rather than attempting to engage in debate. Having people write off research on the basis that they don’t like the conclusions is completely dishonest, and will only result in a backlash at a later time. Similarly, remember that guy who published research challenging the numbers of Jewish dead during the Holocaust - there was no debate of the research, only the fact that he dared to challange the accepted wisdom. While it might be nausiating for those close to the subject, I believe that the only good way to deal with research or an argument that somebody finds unacceptable is to engage the debate with opposing arguments and research. The result of not doing this will be long-term resentment by people that would otherwise accept a reasonable rebuttal."
From MarkS on
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/pacific_island_immigration.html#comment-453647Au revoir
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Clydesdale is just another Neigh sayer and that guy Simon is sounding like he's a little horse himself.
who ever suggested we not have a variety of cultures on our country? It's not the same thing to say that we should have a right to choose who comes into the country so that we actually gain from them joining us, rather than have them pull us down.
We? Us? This guy Simon obviously hasn't heard of the ubiquitous THEM. Those that make those decisions for us after we vote them into power on promises of tax free oats. Now, where's that Wensleydale..........
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And if you read the Kiwiblog post, you will know that we have a quota of how many PIs we have to bring into the country. Labour relaxed the standards in 2004 because we weren't bringing enough in.
So, we're not treating all people from all countries fairly: we're being BIASED TOWARDS Pacific Islanders. So you can stop going on about racism.
If we have this unfair quota, unfair in your fullas' favour, we should be able to question - at least - whether the quota needs to be reduced, or the standards need to be higher.
But you guys don't like debate, you like playing the victim.
It's what Tammy Bruce called The Misery Merchants in The New Thought Police. People actually make a living out of playing the racial discrimation card.
Good reason to keep finding racism where it's not, otherwise their careers would come to an end.
I bet you didn't even know about the quota.
Ignorance is rife in NZ. So are personal attacks on anyone who challenges the status quo.
Here, as in the USA, people are made to fear cries of racism and fascism if they merely dare to think a bad thought about brown people.
There are many of us who are not racists, who get repeatedly told we are and we just don't know it.
Debate the immigration quotas, we should. Attacking a person personally for saying something we don't like is poor debating form.
Dub - by your logic, it should be okay for me to insult Pacific people for having this quota in the first place, and for, as you said yourself, wanting to culturally colonise me.
But unlike you, I will refrain, because, unlike you, I can get along with people no matter where they're from.
Hassling someone for what race they were born into is disgusting, and in fact, is racism. And you think it is okay.
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Sofie -Yep! I keep thinking "Team America" though.:-)
Is that the nude puppet sex scene?
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