Hard News: Bad men
187 Responses
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Sorry, Russell, I thought you would be aware that I was referring to external corroborating evidence. Clearly pyhsical or external corroboration is not important to you. And you have (deliberately?) ignored the fact that Mr Reynolds does not seem to be a very reliable witness.
Ross, I feel that I am in danger of wasting my time with a persistent troll.
You demanded "some evidence that someone has been violated with a baton" and when just such evidence was pointed out to you, you did not gracefully accept you were wrong, but began moving the goalposts in a quite preposterous fashion.
If you can't honestly admit you were wrong, perhaps you could do the decent thing and give up and go away.
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Have these allegations been tested in Court, Russell? If not, why not?
It turns out ... yes! But...
I thought you would be aware that I was referring to external corroborating evidence.
Ohhhh, of course! Russell you dingbat, anyone could have inferred that from Ross's initial statement.
Clearly pyhsical or external corroboration is not important to you.
External? Like, other policemen? Or are they not credible witnesses?
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bah. too slow.
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merc,
In a lone weathered house in Wairarapa a small room with walls covered in yellowed newspaper clippings, dusty black and white photos, and aging magazine articles, a small red pin with a line of yellow cotton attached is carefully moved to a new location...
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You've got nothing to be concerned about, but I would like to know - even if you don't - if any of the witnesses appearing on behalf of the accuser were given any payment (in cash or in kind) for helping police with their inquiry. That should be public knowledge, right?
Well, why don't you go and find out and let us know then? Off you go...
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Ross, your vast conspiracy theory seems to be looking a little hairy. Might I suggest the purchase of an Occam's Razor?
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> If you can't honestly admit you were wrong, perhaps you could do the decent thing and give up and go away.
OK, I admit that I, like 36 jurors who - over three trials - heard all the evidence and who decided that a baton apparently wasn't involved, am wrong.
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> External? Like, other policemen? Or are they not credible witnesses?
Apparently when they're appearing for the prosecution, they're very credible, but as soon as they appear for the defence, they're not. Hmmm.
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OK, I admit that I, like 36 jurors who - over three trials - heard all the evidence and who decided that a baton apparently wasn't involved, am wrong.
Uh, they didn't decide that it wasn't used. They decided that it wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt. So they might ALL believe that the baton was used, but were only 70% sure. Or they might ALL believe it wasn't used. You can't tell.
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Also, the justice system operates on a innocent until proven guilty premise. However, I believe one of the reasons why suppression orders are generally frowned upon is so that where reasonable doubt exists, the public are still able to scrutinise the strength of the evidence for themselves. In this case, I'm not sure that anybody comes off particularly well.
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> Uh, they didn't decide that it wasn't used. They decided that it wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt.
But what caused this doubt? Remember this doubt was not among just one juror but ALL 36 jurors. However, Russell's opinion is that there is no doubt that a baton was used. How can you reconcile the two positions - well, the 36 jurors heard all the evidence and the rest of us didn't.
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> Also, the justice system operates on a innocent until proven guilty premise.
But there are some here who apparently believe, in sex cases, guilty until proven innocent. The fact remains: you cannot prove a negative.
> In this case, I'm not sure that anybody comes off particularly well.
I agree with you there.
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Uh, they didn't decide that it wasn't used. They decided that it wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt. So they might ALL believe that the baton was used, but were only 70% sure. Or they might ALL believe it wasn't used. You can't tell.
Actually, they decided in the Nicholas case that there wasn't sufficient evidence to convict of rape. They *and* the most recent jury may well have believed that Shipton et al were in the habit of using police batons for sexual penetration (and in the most recent trial, there was plenty of evidence tendered to that effect), but in itself that's not a criminal offence (and nor should it be). It might, OTOH, represent a significant disciplinary breach.
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I would like to welcome our visitor from the Wairarapa to the usually reasoned arguments posted here at PA. But feel that he may feel more at home here
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B'ad men... Now that you have the AA ad running down the left hand side of my screen, I can no longer see the list of the latest PA blog posts. Any chance of getting them back? I tend to go to PA System first now, and only flick back to PA to read the blog posts.
This is on Safari, on a Mac.. (and Firefox too - I just checked).
I'm supportive of the ads, and happy to take part in surveys if that will help you to establish demographics so that you can generate some good revenue from the site. Best wishes for making this site financially viable.
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B'ad men... Now that you have the AA ad running down the left hand side of my screen, I can no longer see the list of the latest PA blog posts. Any chance of getting them back? I tend to go to PA System first now, and only flick back to PA to read the blog posts.
Hopefully it's unrelated to the ads and minor. The site shifted to a newer version of the content management system today, so I'm assuming it's a glitch there.
I'm not wild about the cost-per-click ads you're seeing served into that tower slot. They're filling space not conventionally sold, so the answer would be to get some nicer ads for that purpose. We'll work it out.
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yes reece, i think the charming man from wairarapa definitely feels more comfortable on kiwiblog conspiracy nutter. the tone there is incredibly septic - seems like the 'Dykocracy' is conspiring to keep that nice man Mr Rickards out of power.
but tell me rossy, if 'you cannot prove a negative', then how can you prove that statement, hmm?
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come on... think hard now! put down that copy of Investigate
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Sadly it seems there are trolls everywhere over this issue :-(
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well, public anger is rising. spotted just around the corner from the wellington police station, pasted to the ground.
A3 poster, "...the we did her with a bottle"
has "0800 BAD COPS" and a little description of the fun stuff you can hear about on the chat line.
am thinking that won't last the day.
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Yes, the flatmate wants to find a recruitment billboard and alter it thus,
" Get some baton work stories"
It's just not a good look, but while helen makes political hay just remember that she oversaw his promotion several times while aware of the allegations against rickards so we'll just have to wait and see as always, the teflon has to be wearing thin by now for this government.
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merc,
Maybe we're growing up.
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yes reece, i think the charming man from wairarapa definitely feels more comfortable on kiwiblog conspiracy nutter. the tone there is incredibly septic - seems like the 'Dykocracy' is conspiring to keep that nice man Mr Rickards out of power.
Hmmm, yes. The misogyny is certainly surfacing. It also gets pointless and circular, which is why I was losing my patience with ross f yesterday.
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merc,
Yeah but the first comment on this post was pretty funny...
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/03/party_party_party.html#comments -
> but tell me rossy, if 'you cannot prove a negative', then how can you prove that statement, hmm?
If I knew what statement you were referring to, I might respond. Could you be more specific.
And Russell, you do yourself no favours by referring to me in the same post about misogyny. Just for the record, many rapes are susccessfully prosecuted each year, and rightly so. In no way at all am I am an apologist for rapists and I take great offence at the suggestion. As far as I'm concerned, rapists should have the book thrown at them. Glad we've got that cleared up.
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