Hard News: Art with a job to do
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My daughter who is nowhere remotely even close to voting age, said "Stupid flag! Why do we even NEED a flag?"
Answering that with a straight face to a child is almost impossible.
Of course, the real reason is to lay claim to things: countries, athletes, soldiers. If you like it, you'd better put a flag on it.
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Steve Barnes, in reply to
(One finds a similar attitude in beer snobs.)
…and others with a taste for something other than the mundane sugary crap that most call beer in Noo Zullund.
Being a bit of a cynic I would have gone for the Chocolate Starfish as a symbol for the leaders of our fair country. -
Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
After all, you only do this once.
See, you geddit. I believe as Alec Morgan said, an attempt at manufactured consent. Your suggestions as to how to do it fairly and for all, just doesn't work when trying to manipulate thought. This is how we end up with a corporate logo. Julie Christie will be so proud, will dine out on it for months,will probably get her some more work.She's sooo suck sess full! (bucket needed)
Got some great comments here todai. Dalziel and the fern analogy ,just perfect. -
George Darroch, in reply to
“Stupid flag! Why do we even NEED a flag?”
Because (like it or not), we are a nation. And nations need symbols, for practical purposes, and not so practical ones.
And it is those less practical but more important things that relate to meaning and identity that a flag comes to embody.
Yes, it's not practical in the sense that you could simply give all people a grey uniform and be done with clothing, but expression to the world is important. We're human, after all. And if we're clever humans we'll let our flags unite us and not send us into conflict.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
(One finds a similar attitude in beer snobs.)
Oh fufuxache! Sometimes it's refreshing to engage one's brain when deciding if the beer at hand is desirable. Should we just all stand in a row and shout "Lager, Lager Lager" ? You may wannabe a lout..... we need more of that yeah?
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I think this will be my flag, for the next month or so anyway. Using the crossed Matariki/Crux pattern, but inverting it, and placing it in context: Crux leading home, Matariki out into the wider world. Also deliberately placing NZ on the edge of the frame (on the side of the flag anchored to the ground, obviously). And retaining black as a major part of the national colour scheme, without entirely giving into it.
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A re-edit...
“You see the arguments from the RSA that, well, people fought and died under the flag – and that’s true. They certainly did fight under the flag.
Well yes Prime Minister but the also did die.
“But I think they actually fight for values and principles – human rights, women’s rights and democracies.”
Well yes Prime Minister, like a woman's right to wear a Ponytail.
“That’s the national symbol of New Zealand – that’s what we’re known by.
So, yes Prime Minister, a Ponytail... but why the Silver Fern?.
“The reason why I support the change of a flag is simply because we will wear it, use it and promote it more. It’s therefore all about national pride and recognition of our country and showing the world how great we think New Zealand is."
Well yes Prime Minister, just like the All Blacks.
“And I don’t think we do that very much with our current flag.”
Well yes Prime Minister. Steinlager?Always with the Swinelager, yuk...
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James Littlewood*, in reply to
George, that sounds SO grown up!
Would we really stop being a nation if we didn't have a flag? Just try that one with a straight face to a 6 yo.
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I'm still confused. Is that white thing a feather (lots of OS people have asked me) or is it a fish skeleton?
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“But I think they actually fight for values and principles – human rights, women’s rights and democracies.”
Can anyone think what war could have reasonably been described as relating to women's rights? I got nothing. France didn't have female suffrage until 1944.
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Moz, in reply to
Can anyone think what war could have reasonably been described as relating to women's rights?
I think it might be accurate to say that some individuals fought for women's rights and freedom, even though the war was about getting more for our masters.
Although I also think there's a good case for saying that the PKK/PYD army are fighting exactly for human rights and specifically women's rights. For example http://news.infoshop.org/anarchist-news/anarchy-in-kurdistan
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Alec Morgan, in reply to
classic manufacturing consent is not conspiracy but a conscious strategy, and the PM has been at it again today with what I’d call dissing the RSA, there are free flags available on request (the two top polling ones currently) for those interested to fly them before referendum #2, I would not be surprised if Nat branches distribute them in bulk, stage 2 of the flag fiasco process will be on full turbo boost shortly
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I know I shouldn't be.
But I am constantly surprised at the level of conspiracisation from the public.
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Sacha, in reply to
Fixed the link... here
Ta. Don't know what happened there.
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George Darroch, in reply to
Would we really stop being a nation if we didn’t have a flag?
No more than Qantas would stop being an airline if it flew aircraft with white tails. It would find its job considerably harder though.
I’m not sure you’re being sincere.
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Stephen R, in reply to
Although I also think there's a good case for saying that the PKK/PYD army are fighting exactly for human rights and specifically women's rights.
I'd probably say they're fighting for their existence. Between Turkey and ISIS, I suspect that if the Kurds just rolled over, many (most?) of them would be killed as being "the wrong sort". That appears to have been the case for a long time.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
No more than Qantas would stop being an airline if it flew aircraft with white tails. It would find its job considerably harder though.
So, a corporate logo it is then? The Flag is a logo. This new National blue logo is devoid of any other identity. Oh toss in the new interpretation of the stars and we got the alliance with USA instead of Britain, of course, now I geddit.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
classic manufacturing consent is not conspiracy but a conscious strategy, and the PM has been at it again today with what I’d call dissing the RSA, there are free flags available on request (the two top polling ones currently) for those interested to fly them before referendum #2, I would not be surprised if Nat branches distribute them in bulk, stage 2 of the flag fiasco process will be on full turbo boost shortly
+ this household.
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James Littlewood*, in reply to
sincere
Sure I am, if possibly also dabbling knowingly in the hypothetical. Still, it's clearly a more strategically progressive question than anyone in the flag panel managed to come up with.
What would actually change if we indulged my daughter's whim to let anyone fly any flag they want?
Fuck. All.
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Just by the way, New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks. Red peak has no meaning for New Zealand. This whole thing, including the reaction to the vote, is surely self-parody by inward-along out-of-touch Pt Chev and Aro Valley elitists. When it comes to a New Zealand flag, 1.2 million voters cannot be completely wrong. Many of you here, would benefit learning about your country and your fellow citizens. Many of you seem to hold them in contempt.
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I loathe both flags. They speak of muddling and mediocrity. They’re not designs, they’re clip art. They say nothing of a new New Zealand. They’re an indictment of the market research that passed for consultation in the flag panel process. If anything, I’ve come to despise them more as the process has ground on. I will not be able to vote for a change to either Tweedledum or Tweedledee when the second round of the referendum is held next year.
Totally agree... as someone that is not Maori or Pakiha (we are a 25% of the population)... the new flag feel like a box of wetbix.
Truly a missed opportunity :-(
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Moz, in reply to
they're fighting for their existence. Between Turkey and ISIS, I suspect that if the Kurds just rolled over, many (most?) of them would be killed
I think the right to exist is a fairly important human right :) And also, many have already been killed by Turkey, the US and Iraq in very recent memory, with the support of the EU.
I'm more saying that the way they're organising and the governing structures they're using are an explicit statement of "our way". They're not just fighting to survive, they're fighting to survive as the people they want to be. And especially some of the women I've read are very much fighting not to be the dutiful little women that both Turkey and ISIS want them them to be, knowing full well that their various allies are not happy about that.
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George Darroch, in reply to
Inane supposition.
You'll probably repeat it confidently on National Radio though, at which point it becomes truth.
What is factual is that support for a flag change is higher among those who are; university-educated, Wellingtonian, younger, male, and higher-earners. Which (salary aside) pretty much describes me and my immediate peer group. However, a concentration of support in a group does not mean that its support is or was limited to that group - otherwise it would not have garnered the votes of 119,000 New Zealanders.
The archetype is not the type.
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Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to
Many of you seem to hold them in contempt.
Speak for yourself. I understand some voted the way John Key wanted. I understand 10% spoilt their vote. I understand some wanted to effect change. 4.5 million less those leaves a whole lotta others (you are ignoring,) like the RSA that want to keep the Flag we got already. Geez that's 3.3 million. I don't hold any of those in contempt at all.
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Moz, in reply to
New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks.
As a kiwi living in the land of the long brown cloud, that is one of the things that makes me go "what?" about the red peak design. I'm not at all in favour of any of the options given, including the current flag. But my contact with anyone in NZ is pretty limited, let alone their opinion of fringe issues like the current exercise. I've seen more "waste of time" comments than any actual discussion.
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