Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Art with a job to do

Aquila G

Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:16:17 +1300

Was out on the water yesterday and spotted this:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Aquila1nz/status/701151433459003392
https://mobile.twitter.com/Aquila1nz/status/701151779652632576
Well done to whoever put it there.

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 07 Jan 2016 10:56:30 +1300

I notice this morning that the increasingly tattered black ferny flag that has flown over Xero's (old, being rebuilt) offices in Wellington has been replaced by an old-school NZ flag.

Steve Todd

Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:19:13 +1300

"could have *been* flown together".

Steve Todd

Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:14:21 +1300

"Goal achieved, I guess."

I suspect you're right, izogi.

This process could have been carried out so much better than it has been. A proper panel of vexillologists / designers, charged with coming up with seven (in my view) completely different designs, could have been assembled, for starters. Then, as…

izogi

Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:27:09 +1300

Apparently, the argument was, that people would not want to change the flag unless they knew what flag they were changing to.

I’ve found the political exchanges over this wanting: arguing between "we should first decide if we want to change it at all" and __"that’s silly unless we know…

Steve Todd

Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:27:36 +1300

Wow, tussock. Straight back at me, eh?

"There is no golden rule, you’re making that up. There’s a set of axioms that seem desirable for any particular vote counting method to have, and none of them can cover all such desires at the same time."

I guess you're right. It's…

BenWilson

Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:58:49 +1300

I almost have to admire that candour

Yes, your summary probably describes how most Herald writers feel about their work. Being a bit shit probably does seem to them to be the Kiwi way.

tussock

Sat, 19 Dec 2015 21:08:05 +1300

but that would break the golden rule of preferential voting – later preferences can never harm earlier preferences.
There is no golden rule, you're making that up. There's a set of axioms that seem desirable for any particular vote counting method to have, and none of them can cover all…

nzlemming

Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:16:41 +1300

"I don't know what I like, but I know about art"?

Everything you need to know about Roughan in one simple sentence...

Joe Wylie

Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:50:37 +1300

"Then there was Red Peak, which wasn’t a flag. Nice abstract art but not a flag.

It was Red Peak that made me vote. I had believed social media to be a serious reflection of public opinion. I had to do what I could."
"I don't know what I like,…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:19:28 +1300

Ladies and Gentlemen – may I present
without getting any further wound up
Suture Self (aka Stitched Up! )
…its one job – to represent the National Psyche

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:16:13 +1300

“The Lockwood flag – it’s a bit shit, but then so are we.”
New more honest Tourism slogan?

Russell Brown

Sat, 19 Dec 2015 09:20:33 +1300

In the Weekend herald today, John Roughan marches, as ever, to the beat of a different drum.

When the voting papers arrived I was still of a mind to ignore them. Key had gone about the exercise completely the wrong way, to my mind. It had ended in an offering of…

Mick Rose

Fri, 18 Dec 2015 20:41:42 +1300

Mea culpa: I’m willing to wear Matthew Hooton’s “Elitist” badge.

I think large numbers of NZers have very poor taste in their choice of flag design and their choice of Prime Minister. Further, I think there are robust, non-arbitrary, criteria by which aesthetic merit and ethical behaviour can be reckoned…

Steve Todd

Fri, 18 Dec 2015 18:38:29 +1300

Izogi, I implied I’d get back to you today. Here goes—

(I’ve overdone it again, people. Sorry.)

“From your tone, does that mean there’s already precedent for 50(A) to take priority over the OIA if tested in court?”

Extremely unlikely. The Act has only been in force since 15 August.…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:53:19 +1300

Another voting option might be to elect an electoral college using a proportional system and then having the college choose a flag that meets with majority approval, calling for other designs if desired.

Steve Withers

Fri, 18 Dec 2015 12:54:35 +1300

I'll vote to change the flag. The proposed one is basically the same as the current one, except the Union Jack is swapped out and replaced by the black and white fern.

Good enough™

I'm for it.

izogi

Fri, 18 Dec 2015 10:29:42 +1300

That’s really interesting, the way the OIA doesn’t have an explicit clause for “information protected by another statute” and the language at s.50 ” the use or disclosure is not required or permitted”.

Also, would we want it to? I’d wonder if the principles of the OIA are so important…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:37:38 +1300

That's really interesting, the way the OIA doesn't have an explicit clause for "information protected by another statute" and the language at s.50 " the use or disclosure is not required or permitted".

The only *required* information is the result data that is published – but is anything outside that…

izogi

Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:13:09 +1300

Hi Steve. Okay, I accept that a counting system which makes it possible for later preferences to override earlier preferences would not be feasible in practice because, it'd create an incentive for people to avoid ranking anything but their first option.

I still think it's risky to make wide-ranging assertions…

Steve Todd

Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:07:50 +1300

Izogi, have a look at my exchange with Eric Crampton at his blog, about 5 weeks ago, following his op-ed in the Dom Post of Friday 6 November, and my letter in response, to the editor, of Monday 9 November, here: http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.co.nz/2015/11/condorcet-conundrums.html#disqus_thread.

I lay out my case against Condorcet counting,…

izogi

Thu, 17 Dec 2015 21:42:35 +1300

Hi Steve. Thanks for the comprehensive info and reasonings.

Eric Crampton, Head of Research at The New Zealand Initiative in Wellington, is putting in an OIA request, to test whether the Electoral Commission can lawfully invoke section 50(1) of the Act, to withhold electronic preference data. The wording seems pretty…

Steve Todd

Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:38:48 +1300

Despite saying to Jason Kemp, I'd "leave it that", there has been little or no discussion of art and design since my last post on Monday, so I’ve decided to respond to some of the comments that have been made over the last 48 hours. But first—

To mpledger—

I…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:17:53 +1300

Civil War I reckon. It’s just about to boil over. Weetabix Kids vs Redcoats.

I’m off to Machine Gun City to get me one of those cheap AKs they’ve been advertising. Reckon my gun license will be ok:

Steve Barnes

Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:59:58 +1300

I am deeply saddened by how divisive this process has been allowed to become. There will be people angry about the result no matter which way it goes, mostly because the process was never designed to try and be inclusive.

This...
As I have said before, we need this binding…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:12:01 +1300

(from Wired:) "architect Kyle Lockwood" — that's libelling architects there! He's an architectural designer...

linger

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:06:04 +1300

If you're concerned about the process, can I urge you, instead of abstaining, to vote against Weetbix (and unfortunately, that means for the incumbent flag) so that at least we don't have to go through the further expense of actually rebranding everything for little real purpose.

George Darroch

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:49:24 +1300

It looks like a fairly superficial article to me. She seems to have put as much deep thinking into it as the Flag Consideration Panel.

Jeremy Andrew

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:39:27 +1300

Wired magazine are in favour of the Lockwood flag from a design point of view.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 14:41:15 +1300

A couple of random thoughts.

For those people poking fun at the flags that lost this vote and at those people who voted for them I have nothing but contempt. The people that voted are all New Zealanders, that they have an opinion about a flag that differs from the…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:42:53 +1300

Exactly.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:08:19 +1300

I want the Weetbix flag.
and the promise of bricks with plenty of fibre and great with lashings of butter...
;- )

...another attempt later on..
I still can't see the point of changing the references to the monarchy/colonial past when we still have to have approval of the Queen's…

Bevan

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:54:27 +1300

I wanted Red Peak and didn't rank the others. I'm thinking of abstaining in the second ballot. I don't want the current colonial flag but neither do I want the Weetbix flag.
I won't be celebrating the result either way.

Although if the vote is no change, there may be…

Dave Dobbyn

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:25:37 +1300

Omnishambles is a perfect word for the flags debacle.
I've found myself deeply irritated through the non-process of it's farcical gaudiness. The irritation turns to anger at the thought of the $26 million bill for what I hope will play out to be a giant failure. In light of our…

sandra

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:28:33 +1300

Love the not-so-subtle message in today's Herald ... John Key posing with the selected contender (ie, holding it up full length) with the current NZ flag shown as pretty small and kind of lying beneath his feet (yes, almost an after-thought). And by 'love' I mean 'detest'.

Joe Wylie

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 06:08:49 +1300

Like, you put the Rugby emblem on the NZ flag, you're there. Most people want to vote for the winner and so there it is, y'all knew it was going to win too. Curia told Johnkey and he told the rest of us, not exactly a secret.

The same school…

tussock

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 01:38:39 +1300

Obviously we should run a count that finds the Condorcet winner if there is one, but STV will find the Condorcet winner in almost all real single-winner elections anyway.

The flag probably isn't an exception to that, there's no divisive argument with a compromise to be found. A lot of…

izogi

Wed, 16 Dec 2015 00:26:01 +1300

When did this happen ? I dont remember this . Did I miss it?

Okay, point taken. “We” didn’t make the decision except to elect representatives to do it on our behalf. As @Rich of Observationz also said to me earlier, the best time to take part in the process…

linger

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:20:02 +1300

True dat — "we" had about as much input into the selection of the voting mechanism as into the selection of the final official four designs.

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:46:42 +1300

But that’s the counting system we’ve decided on. None’s going to be perfect, and it’s still much better than FPP

When did this happen ? I dont remember this . Did I miss it?

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:44:56 +1300

Which is contrary to what I thought Matthew Hooton was stating. Assuming why people vote as they do without actually knowing is a risky thing, and just because people like one fern rendition doesn’t mean they like any others.

Well he is and he can fart over here all he…

Hilary Stace

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:39:38 +1300

No – as many (up to a certain number) or as few as you want.

Swan

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:30:24 +1300

Just by the way, New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks.

Ever heard of scoria Matthew? Ever done the Tongariro Crossing? You know NZs most popular and world famous Alpine walk?

Sacha

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:29:02 +1300

I understand that you also need to number the ones you dislike, under that voting mechanism.

nzlemming

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 20:50:43 +1300

Didn't open my ballot paper. Don't care what happens. Don't care to think about it, let alone debate it, let alone get angry about it. It's Kardashian news to me.

Ditto.

George Darroch

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:07:45 +1300

I expect many of the non-voters, the informals and quite a few of the fern voters to vote for the current flag.

And a plurality of Red Peak voters.

George Darroch

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:06:01 +1300

To me, the sheer margin of defeat – regardless of abstentions – indicates to me that in the end Red Peak didn’t appeal either to the public at large or as an alternative to those who didn’t like the Lockwoods.

Or, as I said several pages upthread, very few New…

Joe Wylie

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 18:00:42 +1300

I expect many of the non-voters, the informals and quite a few of the fern voters to vote for the current flag.

There was a grey-haired guy soliciting toots from passing traffic by waving the current flag outside the Hornby Mall about an hour ago. He seemed to be getting…

Ross Francis

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:51:09 +1300

For the fern to lose, turnout will have to exceed that of the 2014 election, and pretty much all the non-voters in the first referendum will need to back the Union Jack.

I don't think that is true at all. I expect many of the non-voters, the informals and quite…

Michael Homer

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:06:03 +1300

Mostly I only number one or two candidates – those I really want to win – and leave the rest unnumbered.This is silly unless all of those other candidates are genuinely indistinguishable to you.

izogi

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:58:02 +1300

Best to only number the ones you really like. I urged people not to number the Lockwoods at all so there would be no preferences to transfer.

If you don't rank them then their final count won't go so high, because your vote's never transferred, but your vote can only…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:57:13 +1300

This sez that if you have a single candidate you dislike above all others, leaving them unranked or ranking them last is equivalent.

I’ll leave whether this extends to multiple disliked candidates as an exercise for the reader.

(Of course, one might feel better by not ranking X, but it…

Hilary Stace

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:42:02 +1300

Best to only number the ones you really like. I urged people not to number the Lockwoods at all so there would be no preferences to transfer. In Wellington we are getting more used to STV as it has been used in local body elections for several years now, and…

izogi

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:06:30 +1300

Yes, it does. (Everybody wins because eventually they all voted for the winner!)

I was really just considering the theoretical possibility that people who voted for Lockwood/Red might all utterly hate Lockwood/Black, for some reason. Which is contrary to what I thought Matthew Hooton was stating. Assuming why people vote…

linger

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:02:32 +1300

Indeed. Thus I ended up voting “for” the eventual winner, even though I ranked it 4th.

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:59:52 +1300

But if one would vote say hypno, black white fern then red peak, once they start getting eliminated your vote ends up lockwood no matter what if you number all choices

izogi

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:27:10 +1300

From the count it did seem the black-flag vote seemed to be initially split, eventually converging on the Lockwood-with-black preference over the Lockwood-with-red preference. Especially when the Black and White Silver Fern was eliminated, those went overwhelmingly to the eventual winning option which seems to be what nudged it in…

Jason Kemp

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:07:20 +1300

Thanks Steve – the PV system is indeed more complex than it seems.

izogi

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:18:14 +1300

I wouldn't know about legality of the EC to analyse, but if the information were collected as part of the process, and not disposed of, then I'd have thought it should be queryable under the OIA. Obviously it'd still be subject to the criteria for determining release vs refusal.

It's…

william blake

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:04:08 +1300

Is this flag going to stand for tangata whenua and manuhiri and the principles of partnership written into the treaty of Waitangi, or will citizens be voting along party lines? A vote for the ponga flag is a vote for John Key.

Will the flag be republicanism by stealth with…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:01:14 +1300

combinations of each vote is not a massive undertaking for any random person to process in this day and age.

I noticed an article in Herald (I think, but can't locate now) that stated National Electorates voted overwhelmingly for John Keys favourite, and no mention of any other Electorates but…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:00:48 +1300

I'm not sure – it would seem hard to have done a manual count in the time available.

So maybe they could analyse unused preferences at no real cost. But it's not legislated for – I'm not sure if that would make it illegal for the Commission to perform that…

izogi

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:54:19 +1300

Oh, were they counted manually, then? Somehow I'd imagined that there would be a digital scanning process with any ambiguous ballot papers then being diverted to a real person.

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:38:56 +1300

Google will give you the answers you seek, the process is in statute:
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2015/0066/latest/DLM6405391.html.

Unused preferences are not analysed and hence not recorded – obviously doing so would take time and not affect the actual result. The same process is used for other STV elections.

You could have made a…

izogi

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:03:52 +1300

Even then, that’s only an abbrieviated (and conveniently lossless) method of simply publishing every vote. If there were more options and an order of magnitude more combinations, there are still no more than a few million votes in total. A file or spreadsheet with a few million lines to indicate…

Paul Campbell

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:45:08 +1300

The number of possible combinations 12345 vs 12354 vs …. 54321 is quite small (5! = 120) maybe half as many again for people who chose less than all 5 – Elections NZ could easily release the number who voted for each possible combination without giving up any information about…

izogi

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:27:55 +1300

Of these, 1,204,993 chose a fern as first preference. That is 78.9% – a massive majority.

Are there any reasons to prevent the Electoral Commission from releasing the complete voting configuration for all ballot papers, instead of just the count summary? The ballot papers themselves get destroyed, but the data…

finetoothcolumn

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:17:03 +1300

Hi Russell, thanks so much for the words on my article, as I enjoyed your take on the artistic merit. Valid point on London. I might add that I didn't think most supporters thought it was going to win, more that they wanted it to win, but can see how…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:26:16 +1300

He’d had himself face painted with the Australian flag.
Another star strangled banger?

Joe Wylie

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 06:31:18 +1300

The flag is not clothing, unless you're Australian.

Fifteen years ago, during the first week of the Sydney olympics, I was waiting with the crowd on the ferry for the gangway to be put in place at the Manly wharf. Off to my left I noticed a middle-aged guy in…

Lilith __

Tue, 15 Dec 2015 01:12:19 +1300

US citizens specifically "pledge allegiance to the flag", not merely to what the flag represents. While NZ soldiers have fought under our current flag, AFAIK it's understood as being a symbol, not an entity in itself.

Maybe it's time for some Pete Seeger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJtL7Esf6tc

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:46:15 +1300

Do you see how haughty and arrogant that makes people towards their fellow citizens when they attack so pretentiously the fern-based designs that so many people chose? And also out of touch with the country in which they live?

Your entire argument seems to consist of a demand for people…

linger

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:25:51 +1300

best to call it frond imaginings and leaf it there.

Joe Wylie

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:08:42 +1300

Lord Haw-Haw of the Grammar Zone.

linger

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:31:32 +1300

For the fern to lose, turnout will have to exceed that of the 2014 election, and pretty much all the non-voters in the first referendum will need to back the Union Jack.You are assuming that all fern voters will go on to vote for change, which seems highly unlikely.

Matthew Hooton

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:05:20 +1300

it isn’t calmly made, let’s say.

It was perfectly calmly made.

Matthew Hooton

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:04:08 +1300

I was an informal and it was a protest against the fern’s denigration. Take me out of your maths.

I'm including informals (so your vote) in the 21% who voted against a fern (even though some may have been supporters of a plain black flag with fern).

To check my…

BenWilson

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:06:08 +1300

Didn't open my ballot paper. Don't care what happens. Don't care to think about it, let alone debate it, let alone get angry about it. It's Kardashian news to me.

Carl Rathbone

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:04:47 +1300

I hoped for Red Peak but on reflection the outcome was appropriate. I liked Red Peak because it was modern, intelligent, innovative, bold and progressive. For me it represented the NZ I aspire to have. The artwork and the narrative that quickly grew around Red Peak, revealed what it might…

Sacha

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:40:42 +1300

your own communications on the matter

for those who have missed that joy, I commend rewinding Mr Hooton's twitter feed to Dec 11 and earlier. He does have a point about some people slagging the majority as stupid, but it isn't calmly made, let's say.

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:33:24 +1300

the current anthem took over slowly from god save the queen, and the te reo version is gradually becoming predominant. so let’s just keep flying it.

Yeah.

It's a flag, after all.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:32:47 +1300

I also have the godlike ability of the moderator to amend my posts at will
Damn!
Hung out to dry!
Pedant made pendant...
:- )

Che Tibby

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:26:34 +1300

2c. will fly it anyhow. the lockwood designs will be voted down and be consigned to the rubbish bin where they belong.

the current anthem took over slowly from god save the queen, and the te reo version is gradually becoming predominant. so let's just keep flying it.

Steve Todd

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:25:52 +1300

I know what you're saying, nzlemming, but I can't help myself. I will advocate, explain, and defend PV / STV at every opportunity.

william blake

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:21:56 +1300

Seems to be a bit of the old concrete v abstract going on here. The triangular motif was never going to fly in such a literal culture. It's going to be a contest between 'the fern' and 'the flag', which in its current iteration is a concrete noun.

Steve Todd

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:17:34 +1300

Thanks for that, Russell. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Kumara Republic

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:48:54 +1300

To add: a fern is a maple leaf designed by committee.

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:48:26 +1300

I also have the godlike ability of the moderator to amend my posts at will :-)

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:47:13 +1300

averse

:- )

I AM VERY VERY TIRED AND HAVE A LOT TO THINK ABOUT OKAY.

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:46:37 +1300

Russell, the entire Red Peak campaign, and you post here, and the reaction and twitter and in the comments here, has been one long sneer against the 79% voters (including informal) who opted for a fern design because they believe that represents them and their country.

So I should have…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:45:33 +1300

We’re never adverse to a bit of geekery here...

averse

:- )

nzlemming

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:40:41 +1300

Firstly, I apologise to you for my terseness last night. I had spent most of Saturday explaining and defending PV on Kiwiblog, and I was pretty fed up (even though it was nearly 24 hours later).

I'm sad for you that you felt the need. Kiwiboggers have never been interested…

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:33:14 +1300

Jason, as this blogpost is about art and design, rather than the workings of the PV voting system, I will make this response, then leave it at that.

We’re never averse to a bit of geekery here, but thanks for considering context and all that.

Steve Todd

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:23:13 +1300

Jason, as this blogpost is about art and design, rather than the workings of the PV voting system, I will make this response, then leave it at that.

Firstly, I apologise to you for my terseness last night. I had spent most of Saturday explaining and defending PV on Kiwiblog,…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:18:47 +1300

linger

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:14:01 +1300

For a start, it’s at most 79% of the 48% of eligible voters who actually voted. Which, if you’re paying attention, is not a majority.
There is a constituency, almost as large again – the difference between the 48% who voted in this referendum, and the 78% who voted in…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:08:46 +1300

79% of Hooton’s "facts" are, in fact, made up.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:05:40 +1300

the 79% voters (including informal) who opted for a fern design

I was an informal and it was a protest against the fern's denigration. Take me out of your maths.

Matthew Hooton

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:55:05 +1300

You, on the other hand, have been on a sneering marathon and it’s lame.

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:34:20 +1300

I was on Tokerau beach yesterday :-)
Do you ever find yourself in the Taipa Tavern?.
Thar's our "local"

Alec Morgan

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:51:30 +1300

apols, can’t refind the link I read Sat night for the winning flag, the email below is for communities to obtain a free set of the 5 which involved various guidelines

https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/project-updates/referendum-flag-sets-available-for-communities-to-fly/

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:49:04 +1300

...flew aircraft with white tails...
Spiders On A Plane! perhaps?
Qantas have red backs...

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:44:11 +1300

Oliver Chan’s Red Peak Was Always a Middle-Class Gang Patch is an interesting and good-faith piece of reflection:

Likewise, Twitter merely served the debate equivalent of sniper showdowns between Twitter personalities that the public by and large weren’t following. Most people don’t generally use Facebook or Twitter to debate politics…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:32:43 +1300

Where does one order the free flags? I was going to get a few hundred and make 'art' with them..

Sacha

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:31:23 +1300

a sneering marathon

great coinage

Sacha

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:30:36 +1300

one of them ouroboros things

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:28:18 +1300

Just by the way, New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks. Red peak has no meaning for New Zealand.

It's just the name the design was given. The name is not the same as the flag.

This whole thing, including the reaction to the vote, is…

llew40

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:26:47 +1300

classic manufacturing consent is not conspiracy but a conscious strategy, and the PM has been at it again today with what I’d call dissing the RSA, there are free flags available on request (the two top polling ones currently) for those interested to fly them before referendum #2, I would…

Alec Morgan

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:11:46 +1300

“Whadarrryaaa!!”

Konrad Kurta

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:03:28 +1300

It’s rather a depressing argument: that no matter what we think or why we think it, we should just buckle under and shuffle along with the crowd. As an assertion of national identity, it might be a bit too telling

Euch. My opinion of New Zealand summarized in one depressing…

Carol Green

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:33:52 +1300

Ta. Don’t know what happened there.
A wormhole...

nzlemming

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:23:08 +1300

You'll probably repeat it confidently on National Radio though, at which point it becomes truth.

Which is really the whole point about "manufacturing consent". Read your Chomsky, man! ;-)

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:21:53 +1300

$10 words

Indubitably my good fellow, as cromulent in their efficacy as symbolically staved tea towels .

nzlemming

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:18:48 +1300

No more than Qantas would stop being an airline if it flew aircraft with white tails. It would find its job considerably harder though.

Really? You'll find, if you look, that plenty of flights booked through Qantas are actually on Air New Zealand planes (as one example).

Sacha

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:15:49 +1300

your country and your fellow citizens. Many of you seem to hold them in contempt.

nah, you're thinking of Bradbury and co

nzlemming

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:13:02 +1300

Given a choice between conspiracy or cock-up, I always think the more likely is the omnishambles (as George so adroitly put it)

Nothing wrong with seeing it as a cocked-up conspiracy. Alex did say " attempted manufactured consent".

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:12:18 +1300

What does Winston think?

You’re missing a comma.
What? does Winston think?
I think perhaps a question mark?
But the answer is a resounding yes.
;-)

nzlemming

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:09:26 +1300

the flag fiasco seems a text book example of attempted manufactured consent

This.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:00:18 +1300

Dalziel and the fern analogy
...look out for our new album...
Logging in the Metaphorest
The difficult second album, especially after the well received yet raw earthiness of the Bracken Brew debut.
A pteridologist's wet dream!

in fact a moist reverie just brushed my brow
What if... as ferns…

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:54:54 +1300

What does Winston think?

You're missing a comma.

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:53:08 +1300

What does Winston think?
End embarrassing flag change farce

Saturday, 12 December 2015, 7:09 pm
Press Release: New Zealand First Party
END EMBARRASSING FLAG CHANGE FARCE

Rt Hon Winston Peters
New Zealand First Leaders
Member of Parliament for Northland

12 December 2015

With 1,791,706 voters ignoring…

Sam F

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:49:00 +1300

New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks. Red peak has no meaning for New Zealand.

You’ll never look up in this country and see a red Southern Cross in a blue sky either. And I would say a white mountain with a red core is actually…

Alec Morgan

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:40:09 +1300

a 21st century review of national identity involving republicanism and our post colonial progress; with proper design standards applied, might have been a healthy exercise for the nation–but really the flag should be at half mast over this cynical rebranding exercise timed to bookend the “rubber wool cub”

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:38:55 +1300

a flag for a brave neo world...
Matariki/Crux pattern
Nice.
though I think the 'Matarikix' needs a Red Pill as well as cyan and yellow...
(and that bottom blue strip is buzzing my BNZ logo receptors.)

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:36:48 +1300

I also compared it to clothing. The flag is not clothing, unless you’re Australian

Or Sean Plunket.

Or Uncle Sam...

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:35:07 +1300

Or Sean Plunket.

Touche.

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:32:05 +1300

subliminal blipverts on the telly...

Shhhh, that's already happening.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:30:36 +1300

I also compared it to clothing. The flag is not clothing, unless you’re Australian

Or Sean Plunket.

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:27:58 +1300

If you weren’t an inner-city latte-sipper,
Ok then, Steinlager swilling redneck?.
;-)

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:26:51 +1300

the pirates of pennants...
on the Auckland Harbour Bridge alongside the current ensign.
Or furled above Mt Victoria
I have seen several 'displays' of the 5 alternative flags around Chchch – but none of them also included the existing flag by way of a 'control' contrast
– I am assuming…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:25:59 +1300

1.2 million voters cannot be completely wrong.

Of course they can, after all, do we not have John Key as our prime minister?

Ironheart

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:24:48 +1300

Red Peak was always a middle class gang-patch

https://finetoothcolumn.wordpress.com/2015/12/12/red-peak-was-always-a-middle-class-gang-patch/

Matthew Hooton

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:19:43 +1300

f you weren’t an inner-city latte-sipper,

Excuse me. I do not have milk with my coffee. That is unforgivably vulgar.

linger

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:19:40 +1300

Matthew clearly doesn't pop in here often enough to realise that "many of us here" don't actually support Red Peak either — except as a protest against the infernal nonsense of the process and of the officially sanctioned proposals.

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:17:15 +1300

Just by the way, New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks. Red peak has no meaning for New Zealand.

Actually, the soil of many of our most iconic maunga is brown or red (particularly in our volcanic regions). They are capped with white, in the form…

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:11:08 +1300

So, a corporate logo it is then?

I also compared it to clothing. The flag is not clothing, unless you're Australian.

It is a flag. An item with symbolic meaning that is used for a range of practical purposes and which is necessary for any nation-state in the modern world.

Moz

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:10:31 +1300

New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks.

As a kiwi living in the land of the long brown cloud, that is one of the things that makes me go "what?" about the red peak design. I'm not at all in favour of any of the options…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:09:12 +1300

Many of you seem to hold them in contempt.

Speak for yourself. I understand some voted the way John Key wanted. I understand 10% spoilt their vote. I understand some wanted to effect change. 4.5 million less those leaves a whole lotta others (you are ignoring,) like the RSA that…

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:08:44 +1300

Inane supposition.

You'll probably repeat it confidently on National Radio though, at which point it becomes truth.

What is factual is that support for a flag change is higher among those who are; university-educated, Wellingtonian, younger, male, and higher-earners. Which (salary aside) pretty much describes me and my immediate peer…

Moz

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:08:15 +1300

they're fighting for their existence. Between Turkey and ISIS, I suspect that if the Kurds just rolled over, many (most?) of them would be killed

I think the right to exist is a fairly important human right :) And also, many have already been killed by Turkey, the US and…

Francisco Blaha

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:03:50 +1300

I loathe both flags. They speak of muddling and mediocrity. They’re not designs, they’re clip art. They say nothing of a new New Zealand. They’re an indictment of the market research that passed for consultation in the flag panel process. If anything, I’ve come to despise them more as the…

Matthew Hooton

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:58:07 +1300

Just by the way, New Zealand has grassy-green or snowy-white mountains. Australia has red peaks. Red peak has no meaning for New Zealand. This whole thing, including the reaction to the vote, is surely self-parody by inward-along out-of-touch Pt Chev and Aro Valley elitists. When it comes to a New…

James Littlewood*

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:53:25 +1300

sincere

Sure I am, if possibly also dabbling knowingly in the hypothetical. Still, it's clearly a more strategically progressive question than anyone in the flag panel managed to come up with.

What would actually change if we indulged my daughter's whim to let anyone fly any flag they want?

Fuck.…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:51:57 +1300

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:46:34 +1300

No more than Qantas would stop being an airline if it flew aircraft with white tails. It would find its job considerably harder though.

So, a corporate logo it is then? The Flag is a logo. This new National blue logo is devoid of any other identity. Oh toss in…

Stephen R

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:37:58 +1300

Although I also think there's a good case for saying that the PKK/PYD army are fighting exactly for human rights and specifically women's rights.

I'd probably say they're fighting for their existence. Between Turkey and ISIS, I suspect that if the Kurds just rolled over, many (most?) of them would…

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:25:00 +1300

Would we really stop being a nation if we didn’t have a flag?

No more than Qantas would stop being an airline if it flew aircraft with white tails. It would find its job considerably harder though.

I’m not sure you’re being sincere.

Sacha

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:19:42 +1300

Fixed the link... here

Ta. Don't know what happened there.

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:11:12 +1300

I know I shouldn't be.

But I am constantly surprised at the level of conspiracisation from the public.

Alec Morgan

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:08:55 +1300

Moz

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:05:13 +1300

Can anyone think what war could have reasonably been described as relating to women's rights?

I think it might be accurate to say that some individuals fought for women's rights and freedom, even though the war was about getting more for our masters.

Although I also think there's a good…

B Jones

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:52:46 +1300

“But I think they actually fight for values and principles – human rights, women’s rights and democracies.”

Can anyone think what war could have reasonably been described as relating to women's rights? I got nothing. France didn't have female suffrage until 1944.

Kevin McCready

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:52:39 +1300

I'm still confused. Is that white thing a feather (lots of OS people have asked me) or is it a fish skeleton?

James Littlewood*

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:36:29 +1300

George, that sounds SO grown up!

Would we really stop being a nation if we didn't have a flag? Just try that one with a straight face to a 6 yo.

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:31:59 +1300

A re-edit...
“You see the arguments from the RSA that, well, people fought and died under the flag – and that’s true. They certainly did fight under the flag.
Well yes Prime Minister but the also did die.
“But I think they actually fight for values and principles – human…

linger

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:29:42 +1300

I think this will be my flag, for the next month or so anyway. Using the crossed Matariki/Crux pattern, but inverting it, and placing it in context: Crux leading home, Matariki out into the wider world. Also deliberately placing NZ on the edge of the frame (on the side of…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:24:51 +1300

(One finds a similar attitude in beer snobs.)

Oh fufuxache! Sometimes it's refreshing to engage one's brain when deciding if the beer at hand is desirable. Should we just all stand in a row and shout "Lager, Lager Lager" ? You may wannabe a lout..... we need more of that…

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:18:07 +1300

“Stupid flag! Why do we even NEED a flag?”

Because (like it or not), we are a nation. And nations need symbols, for practical purposes, and not so practical ones.

And it is those less practical but more important things that relate to meaning and identity that a flag comes…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:09:23 +1300

After all, you only do this once.

See, you geddit. I believe as Alec Morgan said, an attempt at manufactured consent. Your suggestions as to how to do it fairly and for all, just doesn't work when trying to manipulate thought. This is how we end up with a corporate…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:09:08 +1300

(One finds a similar attitude in beer snobs.)

…and others with a taste for something other than the mundane sugary crap that most call beer in Noo Zullund.
Being a bit of a cynic I would have gone for the Chocolate Starfish as a symbol for the leaders of our…

James Littlewood*

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:56:08 +1300

My daughter who is nowhere remotely even close to voting age, said "Stupid flag! Why do we even NEED a flag?"

Answering that with a straight face to a child is almost impossible.

Of course, the real reason is to lay claim to things: countries, athletes, soldiers. If you like…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:52:21 +1300

One of my biggest concerns is the divisiveness that the final vote may cause.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if the final referendumb is FPP then a 49:51 result would set father against son, brother against brother.
We need, at least a 75% in favour for a change this…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:50:26 +1300

They certainly did fight under the flag.
“But I think they actually [fought] for values and principles – human rights, women’s rights and democracies

Re-engineering history. With the exception of WW2, all NZ's wars have been primarily about advancing the interests of the ruling classes in Britain and/or America against…

Carol Green

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:49:14 +1300

Carol Green's list for instance

Fixed the link... here

Also that Scooby Doo gif? By Toby Morris. Always on point.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:45:50 +1300

I suppose the idea of still flying it no matter, and good on you for that, (it is nice to look at), is in and of itself a protest vote. It would seem it has been a protest flag all along which is why it couldn't win.Why the Key had…

llew40

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:39:52 +1300

the flag fiasco seems a text book example of attempted manufactured consent

Given a choice between conspiracy or cock-up, I always think the more likely is the omnishambles (as George so adroitly put it)

The thing I am surprised about is – assuming the Government genuinely wanted to change the…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:38:21 +1300

Flag vote: John Key thinks RSA is wrong about pride
"You see the arguments from the RSA that, well, people fought and died under the flag – and that's true. They certainly did fight under the flag.
"But I think they actually fight for values and principles – human…

JessicaRose

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:30:15 +1300

Red Peak might now become the white liberals’ Tino Rangatiratanga flag.

I was just thinking that as I bought the Red Peak flag and patches. I don’t identify with the Lockwood designs and also now understand people who have never identified with the current flag. And I only vote red…

sandra

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:28:11 +1300

I’ll be voting to retain the current flag because I want to protest the total lack of designer-input and the pretend public-consultation, not because I have a particular attachment to it.

Yeah, that's pretty much my view. If we're going to have a new flag (and there's no reason why…

mike gemmell

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:19:59 +1300

Russell, is there audio of your time on the radio for the flag marathon?

James Littlewood*

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:02:00 +1300

I can't fuckin stand this shit. It's bollocks, from arsehole to breakfast.

Mark Hadfield

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:56:11 +1300

I like the solver fern + stars flags and I've always been mystified by the confident statements of various people, notably on this site, that not only are these flags not to their personal taste, but that they are actually rubbish in an objective sense. (One finds a similar attitude…

George Darroch

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:19:46 +1300

If you like a flag, fly it. That is the best way to demonstrate how the image ‘works’ (or doesn’t) as a flying moving thing. I suspect that the thousands of Red Peaks out there will continue to have an impact as people see them. It may not ever become…

Alec Morgan

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:16:14 +1300

given the absence of anything even approaching good design practice, the panel manipulating its internal polls, co-option of the All Black captain, insider conflicts of interest etc. the flag fiasco seems a text book example of attempted manufactured consent

a flag change also fits nicely with a national consideration of…

Joe Wylie

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:09:38 +1300

This remix happened too.

That cat on the left certainly looks as if he believes he got the cream.
So the world has Grumpy Cat, but we have Grateful Hua.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:07:18 +1300

That picture of prime posers Key & Plunket looks like a coupla washed up superheroes in alter ego mode: Flag Boy and White Wing the Crow quaffing the ales of the great corporations...

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:03:33 +1300

Hi ho, Silver!
…people who liked ferns would vote them 1, 2 and 3 before voting for the other non-fern designs.
It does have a certain inherent fractal inevitability …
– even though they have only used a shallow imitation of a real ponga leaf which does not reflect the…

Jonathan King

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:02:34 +1300

Fave!

I'd love to see it adopted as an emblem for NZ Music. For NZ On Air, NZMIC and others to band together to license it for use to denote "homegrown" at home and "straight out of Aotearoa" elsewhere. Not exactly a flag or a logo, but a badge of…

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:48:16 +1300

I’m sure people will be flying laser kiwi, too.

Ah why not.

Joe, I took the liberty of sharing your work via social media (with due credit, of course). You have made many people happy. This remix happened too.

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:45:01 +1300

Just added to the post: The Red Peak of New Zealand site collects many instances and invocations of the design. Nice.

Jason Kemp

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:00:55 +1300

What I meant was that when 3 of the 5 designs featured ferns – that people who liked ferns would vote them 1, 2 and 3 before voting for the other non-fern designs.

If there had only been a single fern design then the voting pattern might have been a…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 07:19:32 +1300

It is all about followship.
This strikes a chord!
hmmmm
I can see an epic in this…
…The Followship of The Key…
a group of elfish impersonators trade in an old vanguard
for some dodgy ‘new standards’ that fail to fly…
They then try to flog the family silver and…

richard

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 23:24:25 +1300

Just realised what the Lockwood “symbol salad” flag reminds me of; it is like what happened when Homer Simpson was asked to design a car…

Powerful like a gorilla, it's tough and yielding like a nerfball…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw9gaEiQAxY

Joe Wylie

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 22:32:45 +1300

At least laser kiwi knows it's silly.

Nothing says punch above your own weight like laser kiwi.

Michael Smythe

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 22:05:40 +1300

Very well said Russell – market research will always deliver the comfortable and familiar. It is all about followship. Flags should lead from the front!

mpledger

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 21:45:55 +1300

The vote count really makes the whole process look like a sham. When one flag only generates 1/10 of the votes of the another flag, it shows the flag committee did a really bad job of choosing with flags to make it to the final four.

Ideally, what should have…

Steve Todd

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:44:20 +1300

"I voted for Red Peak but the way preferences work it was not a surprise to be beaten."

What on earth is that supposed to mean, Jason? Do you actually understand how the Preferential Vote works? Have you actually had a look at the preliminary result at www.electionresults.org.nz?

The reason…

Kumara Republic

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:43:31 +1300

I voted Red Peak for one very simple reason, and the architect Mies van der Rohe said it best: "less is more". Guess I'll be voting for the existing flag next year, not because I like it but because the winning design shouts out loudly "designed by committee".

linger

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:16:09 +1300

I'm going to guess that one was supposed to represent Matariki (in red) / Crux (in white), rather than an array of failed attempts to apply bandaids.
But hey, as a national symbol, that works too.

Lilith __

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:47:37 +1300

I’m sure people will be flying laser kiwi, too.

Ah why not.

That's better! At least laser kiwi knows it's silly.

Joe Wylie

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:20:00 +1300

I'm sure people will be flying laser kiwi, too.

Ah why not.

Sacha

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:15:20 +1300

Simon Pound describes an alternative process that could actually work, and concludes:

The good thing is we now have a chance to do this right. Vote for the current flag and then let's have another crack at this in a few years. While we are at it let's change our…

Sacha

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:27:25 +1300

there were much better designs submitted

Carol Green's list for instance

Sacha

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:19:59 +1300

I was interested to see this entry in an official website.
The national Māori flag

Thanks. Great explanation.
Imagine how they'd describe what the Lockwood symbolises ..?

Tim Welch

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:05:22 +1300

As somebody said on Twitter, the black Lockwood design is just the current flag with the Union Jack swapped out and the All Black fern swapped in.

Like this

Lilith __

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:02:38 +1300

I'm sure people will be flying laser kiwi, too.

Lilith __

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 16:59:53 +1300

Many people believe the silver fern on black already represents New Zealand. No reason why red peak can’t be an alternative. Personally I have tried to like it (and I voted for it) but there were much better designs submitted, I think, including the charming one above.
I’ll be voting…

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 16:48:21 +1300

Colonialism is part of our history. You can investigate and narrate history, but you can't change it. It is what it is.

A standalone change to the flag is promoting an alternative narrative (of an "independent" New Zealand) that actually runs counter to the real direction of policy, for colonialism…

Trevor Nicholls

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 16:47:43 +1300

As somebody said on Twitter, the black Lockwood design is just the current flag with the Union Jack swapped out and the All Black fern swapped in.

Hilary Stace

Sun, 13 Dec 2015 16:20:37 +1300

I have Red Peak flying. It is a strong design and looks very good close up and at a distance. I'm going to keep flying it.