Hard News: In the Music
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as for you ever being in a porition to pay me...HAH!!! niceone!!!!
apart from Promoters musicians are probably the last people on earth i would allow myself to be owed money by.....i have done, and will in future no doubt, provided my services directly to musicians but in those cases remuneration wasnt an issue as i was doing it gratis due to my personal interest in their work or the cause they were promoting etc....if im working in a professional capacity then i very fortunately have the luxury of only neediing to work for established, trustworthy, well resourced commercial entities...
i repeat...its show business not show art!!!
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<quote> what reduced burden. .....
Who knows? I went and looked up the legislation and that's what it said. Your mileage may vary.</quote>
Who knows? apparently not you Russell so why are you pretending to be an authority on it. You're a excellent commentator on things internet and not too bad on media issues, but lets face it right now. you don't know shit about music, its a hobby for you, and you haven't bothered to find out much more about the indepth workings of it than getting your name on the guest list and drinking the bands rider. So how bout taking on board what people who have some experience in these fields have to say. isn't that good journalism?
I was thinking about bill direen in relation to this. There's a man who's work hard for his art, is hated by the mass media and most of his country cos they don't get his arty shit.
one of his early releases was a pressing of 100 singles. He's made squat from what he does yet is held in high regard by you.
if he wasn't driven so much you'd be standing in an empty bar nursing a spitfire spinner bought you listening to the air conditioning.
the question is, do you value these people, or do you just pay them lipservice cos its cool to hang out with bands and drink their beer?But, again, you were completely wrong to claim that legal deposit "only applies to the arts sector", and I remain of the view that legal deposit is an entirely conventional and reasonable quid pro quo for the protection and support of the creation of original works.
come on russell, you're being and idiot now.
you know full well I was comparing the creative sector with the things like dentist lawyers and everyone else with a kick ass salary. But once again you BIG error is beside the point, a side track, I was so COMPLETELY!!!!! wrong!!!! Boy you really got me good their, shot down in flames, good job!I've happily complied with it as an independent publisher (and if you think the money in music sucks, try independent book publishing). It serves the public good.
i'm not complaining, (or wingeing) about the money. I'm commenting on the institutionalised insult in a country that could easily afford to buy this stuff if it didn't waste its money on drafting this ridiculous law and then sending out multiple copies of their thouroughly unreadable 34 page booklet.
In a country that loves govt scandal does this not rate on your radar?
and even though I've thoroughly insulted your knowledge taste and understanding in music do you really think the public deserves the good its had and ignored in its music yet? -
I don't for a second believe NZ on Air spend more than they administer
Well why did you say this then?
because I believe they spend far too much. I'm not equating dollar for dollar, I'm equating dollar with result. Nice office, nice pay check, etc. you've funded carly who for another what??? That's what I'm saying. you knew it, you decided to opt for bogging my comments in bollocks.
but then it wouldn't be a government funding body if it didn't spend more on administering its funding than it dished out in support.
That's what you said, it was wrong, I took issue.
No you did the equivalent of correcting my spelling.
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I see my attempts at levity have failed to calm this thread down ...
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Who knows? apparently not you Russell so why are you pretending to be an authority on it.
I'm not an authority, but I did go and read the law.
You're a excellent commentator on things internet and not too bad on media issues, but lets face it right now. you don't know shit about music, its a hobby for you, and you haven't bothered to find out much more about the indepth workings of it than getting your name on the guest list and drinking the bands rider.
Another pointless and baseless insult. WTF is wrong with you?
So how bout taking on board what people who have some experience in these fields have to say. isn't that good journalism?
So I should accept what you say, even when you're wrong. Um, okay.
I was thinking about bill direen in relation to this. There's a man who's work hard for his art, is hated by the mass media and most of his country cos they don't get his arty shit.
one of his early releases was a pressing of 100 singles. He's made squat from what he does yet is held in high regard by you.
I regard Bill as a friend. I've been championing his work for more than 20 years, and I've played his records countless times. I wrote the liner notes for his first retrospective. I have never heard him complain about legal deposit. And I have a copy of that single.
come on russell, you're being and idiot now.
you know full well I was comparing the creative sector with the things like dentist lawyers and everyone else with a kick ass salary. But once again you BIG error is beside the point, a side track, I was so COMPLETELY!!!!! wrong!!!! Boy you really got me good their, shot down in flames, good job!Yes, you were wrong. And if you insult me or anyone else on this thread like that again, I will delete your account.
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At the same time, the music on the Hallensteins ads you keep mentioning is earning its creators a fairly large cheque. This is possible because the state protects their copyrights by law. That's the social contract.
my point is this music was shunned by a large part of the country at the time, but now its the joyous soundtrack to our youth.
for someone who "lives music" you're pretty hard on the people that make it.
Maybe you like your musicians compliant and grateful, I personally like em outspoken and proud. I like shane carter cos he's a rude prick. I've got renewed respect for Neil Finn because he did dare to recalibrate the back slapping. You'd like him to shut up. ok, we differ on that. -
my point is this music was shunned by a large part of the country at the time, but now its the joyous soundtrack to our youth.
Just like Rap Music.
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Dude!!!!as your postings devolve further and further into illogic and low rent "argumentum ad hominem abusive" fallacies of reason you have explained your continued support of moore and his lowest common denominator jingoistic twaddle and lies.....
and yes the country could afford to pay you for your no doubt exquisite artisitic outpourings that you have crafted with great skill and originality for no other reason than your love of the craft and a desire to express yourself....."were not worthy.... were not worthy"...... and it would be even more able to afford it if they didnt spend all the dollars they do on NZ music month or any number of other initiatives!!!
has McCains been in touch with you about getting resource consent to commence mining the freedom fries deposits that appear to abound upon your shoulder??
as for standing in bars drinking a Spitfire.....SERIOUS QUESTION here..... any ideas where in Auckland i might find such a drop?? im counting on Galbraiths to the rescue when i return.....fingers crossed!!!!
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I think you'll find that the reason that legal deposit is required from the publisher, not the archive, is that there's no way archive staff would know about more than 10% of what is published in NZ if they had to go out and find it all themselves. They're not that well funded, and if we want to have a good historical record of culture, then people need to front up with what they produce.
apparenty they're more on it than you think.
they're trawling myspace telling everyone their legal requirement.
They've also been completely on top of some really obscure and under promoted releases in the past and ordered copies, which they've paid for.Personally I'm astonished that they've gone out and bought music previously. I've had to hand over copies for years of publications just because that's what you do. There will be massive gaps of 20th century NZ music if they've just had to go out and find it at the local music store.
In new zealand? come on, its a tiny country and you can know everyone producing music here with a tiny staff and a $20 kiaora phone card. you could even go to your local indie music store and place a standing order for one of everything that coms out. its not hard work. they'd do it for you and you'd save yourself the budget you wasted on threatening everyone.
there are hundreds of libraries in this country, what if they all decide you should provide them with a copy each at your expense?
I'm commenting on this now because its offensive.
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my point is this music was shunned by a large part of the country at the time, but now its the joyous soundtrack to our youth.
Ummm welcome to reality - you think this only occurs in NZ? Or only in music? Or only in artistic endevours?
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also perhaps you might like to front up with your apparent "qulifications" and or background with regard to the music industry.....you hide behind an anonymous nickname and cast aspertions on others level of knowledge or experience....as compared to Russel who is about as open with regard to his background/personal experience frame of reference as anyone can be....
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How about not turning Russell's offhand observation about a gig into an anti-NZOA soapbox? It's so old.
That's a good call re hijacking and soap box, but then you went and ruined it with the "its so old"
my initial response was to the small nature of this countries music community. That you could be surprised at the cross pollination of bands and artists is confusing. I have always felt it pathetic that NZ funding sit in their ivory towers and don't talk to their client base. a visit once every 2 years is the most the can muster for this part of the country. (CHCH, you may remember us from such hits as the runga sisters, exponents and ....the gordons???)
That its "old" to you yet unaddress, well that's sad. -
there are hundreds of libraries in this country, what if they all decide you should provide them with a copy each at your expense?
That would be unreasonable. But that's not what happens, is it? You're required to deposit one copy each with our two national libraries of record.
I'm commenting on this now because its offensive.
You seem to be the only one who thinks so. But you're free to say so (it would be nice if you could keep it seemly) and I'm free to disagree.
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Robbery - what Heather was saying is that if you want to read a good break down discussion on the NZonAir funding then there are several threads at NZmusic.com which are both lengthy and filled with excellent comment - I think Heather saw little point in revisiting the topic and suggested some locations where these discussion have taken place.
What artists have they approached via Myspace do you know? I am actually curious as I would have expected to have heard something about it if they are approaching things in this way.
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it occurs to me, that if you are such a creative person, giving a copy of your work to an official archive might actually be in your own interest?
That's true, but its not your interest they're interested in. its the countries. That's like saying radio shouldn't have to play licence fees to apra for playing music cos they're doing you a favour by promoting it.
They'd be doing you a favour if they weren't generating income from selling ads off it.
once again its the shut up and be grateful attitude to musicians, and it has worn very thin.
you can protect your copyright in many ways, infact you don't even have to do anything to have it, you just need to be able to prove it.
some people have suggested the mailing a copy to yourself idea but I don't know how well that would stand up in court because of your ability to simply mail yourself an unsealed envelope and simply seal it at a later date. -
merc,
I think you write the title on the envelope...but now I guess you can archive it digitally, MYSpace maybe, but that's where the Government may be looking to get revenue off you for them asserting your copyright for you, albeit for a fee, and it's compulsory in law, or you get fined.
Is that the issue? -
merc,
BTW, as an author there is a fund to help pay for libraries requesting your book. Usually you have to make them request it though, and they can make money off your book, they love the fees they can charge for,
- overdue
- booking
- transferring copies
They run a model like the video stores. Free libraries exist no more. -
BTW, as an author there is a fund to help pay for libraries requesting your book. Usually you have to make them request it though, and they can make money off your book, they love the fees they can charge for,
- overdue
- booking
- transferring copies
They run a model like the video stores. Free libraries exist no more.actually I've heard there is a similar thing for authors for for the legal deposit.
That whole rental of works thing is an interesting situation. how does it work with video stores. do they have to pay fees back to the movie owners for each rental occurrence, as a cinema does for each ticket sold?
Then applying that to libraries. theoretically they could buy one copy (or insist that one was deposited) then they could loan that copy out to everyone who was interested in it.
that would completely collapse the income model for the producer.
(spell out note, hypothetical situation to contemplate a concept model, not actually intended as a representation of reality) -
You seem to be the only one who thinks so. But you're free to say so (it would be nice if you could keep it seemly) and I'm free to disagree.
seems that way but that was one of my points, its only important when it affects you (thats the proverbial you, not 'you' you)
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What artists have they approached via Myspace do you know? I am actually curious as I would have expected to have heard something about it if they are approaching things in this way.
every artist I know, I know of over 40 personal. I think they do a search for music and location and hit everyone they find.
I guess you'd have to have new zealand and your city listed in your profile for them to be able to find you. -
merc,
Very good questions, and how does it work for 2nd hand stores, like Real Groovy? Or when happened in my case I gave rights to sell on one online store and up my book popped on another!
I did not give my books to libraries, though my publisher had to give copies to some (on pain of death, I jest). I much prefer a great deal I have with Whitcoull's, the only store to buy for stock, in NZ.
Getting the Govt. involved was not in my best interests. This has resulted also in my not wanting to go ahead with having my 3rd book published here in NZ ( I didn't publish the other 2, others did). It's just too much market, NZ culture focussed. I'd rather do my own thing.
I think that may be at heart here. Some people enjoy the Government's support, some don't. -
has McCains been in touch with you about getting resource consent to commence mining the freedom fries deposits that appear to abound upon your shoulder??
:) I love that whole freedom fries thing. It'll take em a long time to live that slight on the french down.
I thought you were slipping in a john McCain reference but it was just a frozen produce one. -
I'm not an authority, but I did go and read the law.
I've got 3 copies of it on my desk, god it reads terribly,
It was one of my main points. what a waste of money. why have I got 3 copies, why did they even bother sending this stuff out?
Why didn't they just ask nicely first.
Hey brotha, I'm hard up, can you spare a cd?
they might have got the response they were after. they're still cheap assed, but the ned result would have been the same -
how does it work with video stores. do they have to pay fees back to the movie owners for each rental occurrence, as a cinema does for each ticket sold?
No, the distributor sells the rental outlet a dvd/video for (say) $100 and the outlet can then make as much money as they can from renting it before the title is available for purchase thru retail. The distributor may also have a 'buy back' arrangement with the rental outlet, enabling the outlet to thus stock 20+ copies for the first few weeks of release. If the title is unpoular they send (say) half back to the distributor. Or in the 'for sale' bin at the rental outlet.
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Just like Rap Music.
have they started putting upper hutt posse tracks into ads yet?
I haven't noticed any,
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