Posts by Dylan Reeve
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Danielle,
You know, there's an entire female population being told what they should be doing or not doing to prevent this shit, and since THEY ARE GENERALLY NOT THE ONES DOING IT (with certain exceptions) AND ARE NOT ABLE TO PREVENT IT, perhaps we could concentrate on the other half of the equation for a while? Is that so totally batshit crazy?
I really think we should do everything we can to stop telling them that. The message should always be "you are the victim, this is not your fault, nothing you did can excuse the actions of the other party".
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Megan Wegan,
The thing is, it apparently does take some effort. The dude who doesn’t understand that the girl he’s with is too drunk to consent. The woman who won’t take no for an answer, because men should always be up for it. The guy who can’t help himself because she’s said yes every other time, and why should now be any different. Or because she said yes to his friend. Rapists aren’t always a scary guy in a black coat, they’re people we know.
Yeah, there's some education needed there, but I think it's more subtle than "hey men, don't rape" - although to be honest in most of those situations it should be pretty clear that it's not okay (per golden rule thing discussed before).
It’s all very well and good to say that it’s our “perception” that many men rape. But many women will be assaulted. And most women will know someone who has been. So we avoid dark corners, and don’t go to parties where that one guy is, and are scared in our own homes. And we behave that way because we’re taught to believe that there is something we can do to prevent being attacked. There’s not. What we _can_ do is prevent people being attackers.
Not saying it's perception that many men rape - that's certainly true. And many many women will be assaulted.
I think, however, that the message (to men and women) that all men are "potential rapists" (as in every man has within him the potential to be a rapist, not that a given man within a group may do) just serves to created additional fear and stigma and, as I keep suggesting, empowers those that actually are disposed to that to believe that their feelings/thoughts/actions are normal in some way.
Like I keep saying I think the really important change is to stop telling women (and society) that they are responsible in some way, or that their behavior in any way excuses the actions of others. I really really support that. But I think that the message that "all men are potential rapists" (in whatever way that is implied) is also a negative message overall. It tells those men who are potential rapists that they are normal in some way.
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Lilith __,
The trouble with that is if one person wants sex, they may assume the other person does too.
As noted above, many rapists don’t think their actions are hurting anyone. They assume they know what someone else wants or likes WITHOUT ASKING.I've always found this issue troubling. There are people who claim that a man in a relationship with a woman is sexually assaulting her if he makes attempts to initiate sex without specific and clear consent ahead of time.
I don't think that's a reasonable claim - there definitely is a point where a person should have to make their lack of consent clear because, frankly, in some circumstances there are assumptions, signals and expectations that are not unreasonable and there is uncertainty.
The legal concept, as I learned, is apparently that a "reasonable person" would believe they have consent.
However once it's clear that someone does not feel the same way then I think the golden rule can be applied, it just has to be applied to feelings not sexual urges... "How would I feel if someone where trying to pressure me into something I don't want"
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Isabel Hitchings,
Consent is not like the golden rule. It’s about genuinely listening to the other person without projecting one’s own likes or dislikes. Do as you would be done by is a good place to start but a dangerous place to finish.
I'm pretty certain that reasonable ideas about consent can be derived from the golden rule... Like I say, it's a more nuanced interpretation perhaps, but the fundamental concept still exists.
I'm fairly sure if we start with the broad stokes on that concept first then it presents a great building block for the more complex issues later.
I literally can not think of a moral quandary that can't be pretty reasonably resolved with a decent application of that ideal. Maybe learning to apply it is the trick?
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Danielle,
I couldn’t disagree more with that interpretation. The former has all the essentialist futility you’re talking about; the latter is all about education and culture change. It’s as if you’re arguing that Russell shouldn’t have been part of the “It’s Not OK” campaign because it implies that everyone in families beats each other up all the time. The point is that if you’re not beating up or raping people, these education campaigns ARE NOT ABOUT YOU.
To be honest I always felt the "It's Not OK" campaign was somewhat the same actually, or perhaps just making us feel like something was being done - did it make a difference?
The people who are the problem are probably pretty aware that it's not okay. There is however an issue of culture and turning a blind eye - those things do need to change, and perhaps the "Not OK" campaign had an impact on that - made victims feel empower and witness get involved.
You say it's about culture and education - and I agree in a way. I don't think there's anyone that thinks rape is okay (with the exception of rapists I suppose) but there is a culture issue and that's with victim blame. I think that culture needs to change.
I really do think that telling the entire male population that they must make an effort not to rape is suggesting that it should take some effort. I think it suggests that to rapists and to everyone else as well.
(In a similar vein, I find Dry July to be ridiculous and an indictment on drinking culture - if we make a big song and dance about the "struggle" of going a month without drinking then surely we suggesting that such a thing really is a big deal, and frankly it shouldn't be. We legitimise the problem)
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Lilith __,
Do you know what it’s like to always, always feel fearful when out alone at night, and often in the daytime too, if there aren’t many people around? This is what women live with. Is that fair?
Definitely not suggesting it's fair.
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Isabel Hitchings,
We can do a lot to teach people about consent. We can teach preschoolers to ask before starting physical play, to watch the other kids’ faces to make sure they feel ok.
The one moral lesson I try to drum into my kids is "the golden rule" - it works in pretty much every situation. "Would you like it if someone did that to you?" -- They understand it implicitly, and it's a simple lesson that's easy to apply.
It can definitely become more nuanced as they get older of course, but honestly I can't think of any moral decision that doesn't basically come down to that if you can figure out how it applies (maybe that's the trick).
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Danielle,
we spend a considerable amount of our lives making sure we aren’t doing “the wrong thing” because the animalistic penis-brains just can’t help themselves. (Which is of course bollocks. But that’s how the culture currently works.)
I don't disagree - but I think it's that victim blaming (and perpetrator excusing) culture that's at fault. I think addressing that is very productive, but if anything I think that addressing all men as rapists actually makes it worse. It tells those penis-brained fools that they actually are normal - that their desires and attitudes are the norm because everyone's being told that.
Perhaps what I'm saying is that I think "she was asking for it in that skirt" and "guys, don't rape people" are the same message. Both imply that men, naturally somehow, are predisposed to that.
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Danielle,
1. Here’s the distinction. It’s not that we positively think that you *are*; it’s just that sometimes, *we don’t know that you’re not*. (There is a good article on this called Schrodinger’s Rapist which may be instructive.)
Indeed, all men can be perceived as potential rapists, but not all are. But I feel that by addressing all men as if they are possible rapists then you reinforce the idea that they are, both to them and to women.
It feels a little like the paranoia surrounding child abduction where parents, constantly told about the dangers and risk of abduction, become unreasonably over protective and suspicious. Children, constantly drilled (poorly) about "stranger danger" become literally afraid of all strangers.
2. As Lilith says, anti-rape campaigns aimed at men aren’t about hurting your non-rapist feelings: they exist because *some men don’t actually know what rape is* or consider themselves rapists. (See some US research: guys will self-report doing rapey things as long as you don’t attach the actual word rape to the question. )
All of the four questions listed in that article seem pretty distinctly "rapey" to me - like the trial experience I related on Page 1, those are all cases where, I think, no reasonable person would think there was consent... Three of the four include "threat or force" and the other makes it clear the partner "did not want to".
It's alarming that 7% of people responding to that survey admit to those things, but it's still "only" 7%.
Maybe there needs to be a change of message - but the things listed in those survey seem pretty self explanatory to me, and frankly I think they should to all men. Am I just over-estimating men in general?
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Hard News: Rape and unreason, in reply to Lilith __,
Men can do a lot to prevent other men from raping in the same way they can stop each other driving drunk.
I think society can do that - not just men. And I think it has a lot more to do with stopping victim blaming than it does with treating all men as potential rapists.
Guys who have an issue with what consent seem likely to be picking up on those ideas from news and media. Every time some story like this one suggests that being in a place or wearing a thing was in some way inviting attack then it is also planting that idea in the heads of potential attackers.
If we, as a society (and media especially) stop ever making those excuses then I think that would go a long way toward creating a better sense of what is right.