Speaker: It’s Beijing, but not as Beijingers know it
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I dunno, I've just got this thing about Civil War.... it never seems to do much good for the civilian population....
I've also got this thing about sitting on the other side of the planet making over-confident predictions about how people will 'inevitably' respond to a hypothetical.
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BTW, John, to be honest I was one of those people who was certain that the apartheid regime and Soviet domination of Russia would only end in equally "inevitable" civil wars of mind-numbing ferocity. Don't know about you, but I'm pretty glad that my pre-cognitive abilities were zero-for-two there.
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If China were to institute 'western'-style democracy it would inevitably end up in civil war as each province/state decided to go their own way.
Dunno, they've managed to hold together reasonably well over a century or two despite huge upheavals. They've had their civil wars and come through them as a nation and for better or worse I think, and this is a massive over-generalisation, they are, as a nation extraordinarily proud of who and what they are, where they have come from and where they are going.
it's just a wee bit racist
see..there we go..I'm agreeing with you again Craig...I find much of the concern for China and Chinese downtroddenness a tad racist and paternalistic.
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__Thanks John for demonstrating this issue......Whatever happens, this is an unmissable story. And its going to be an unmissable couple of weeks.__
I couldn't agree with you more Charles.
Me too, as I indicated last week. And I'm not pretending it's all good.
Mark Taslov gave me a serve last week, suggesting I was a western media ghoul waiting for the shit to hit the fan -- but separatist terrorists have killed 24 people in the past week, and they're making threats against Beijing itself. Meanwhile, the games opened with a creative spectacle that amazed the (television-viewing) world. The tension between threat and promise is striking. How could you look anywhere else?
Except, perhaps, at Georgia. I was looking for stuff for the TV show yesterday and I found the following video from what seems to be Georgian TV. Nothing fancy, no voiceover for most of it, and really, really depressing to watch:
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see..there we go..I'm agreeing with you again Craig...I find much of the concern for China and Chinese downtroddenness a tad racist and paternalistic.
Damn, I hate saying this -- but I have to decline the compliment. Winston Chruchill put it better than I ever could in the Commons, on November 11, 1947:
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried, in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
I don't think we "Western" folks have any monopoly on democratic self-rule (however far from utopian perfection it might be) or avoiding "inevitable" civil war. And with all due respect, while the Cultural Revolution isn't exactly in full swing there's a less flattering reason why folks might be a wee bit reluctant to offer their candid opinion to an Al-Jazeera reporter bearing photos of 'Tank man'.
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Yep because I'm well aware of Churchill's rather selective application of democratic principals.
isn't exactly in full swing there's a less flattering reason why folks might be a wee bit reluctant to offer their candid opinion to an Al-Jazeera reporter bearing photos of 'Tank man'.
dunno, Craig, for all that I'm not so sure of myself to think that I can put the words in their mouths that confirm my preconceptions.
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isn't exactly in full swing there's a less flattering reason why folks might be a wee bit reluctant to offer their candid opinion to an Al-Jazeera reporter bearing photos of 'Tank man'.
there actually was a reason proffered in the story, and that is that he is a Western icon, not a Chinese one, for reasons, firstly because of the suppression of the imagery in the years afterwards, and later, because when the imagery became more available, China had moved beyond it. Maybe they are right, maybe you are Craig but its an interesting point that he remains a purely Western rallying point.
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I found the following video from what seems to be Georgian TV. Nothing fancy, no voiceover for most of it, and really, really depressing to watch:
Don't be depressed Russell, the Russians are merely assisting the South Ossetians with their dreams of self determination. It's Democracy in Action! Once North and South Ossetia declares itself a united sovreign nation peace will prevail and the Russians will pull out. Unless they're asked to stay by the newly installed Ossetian government.
BTW, John, don't you think it's just a wee bit racist (and hellishly arrogant and presumptous) to presume "we" can handle democracy, but those funny foreign types can't without "inevitable" civil wars?
Don't project, Craig. When did I talk about "those funny foreign types"? I stand by my view that if China were to sudddenly switch to a democratic system ie grant universal suffrage to it's citizens, it would lead to civil war. Which modern society/nation has moved smoothly from non-democracy to democracy? There needs to be a transistion to democracy [as is possibly (hopefully) happening in Zimbabwe as we speak] and perhaps that is what China is doing now with the 'elections' Simon is referring to.
I find much of the concern for China and Chinese downtroddenness a tad racist and paternalistic.
Damn, am I forced to play the 'some of my best friends are Chinese' card?
I was one of those people who was certain that the apartheid regime and Soviet domination of Russia would only end in equally "inevitable" civil wars of mind-numbing ferocity. Don't know about you, but I'm pretty glad that my pre-cognitive abilities were zero-for-two there.
Well I'm glad you were wrong but then unlike you I wasn't one of those people who thought the end of apartheid would bring civil war to South Africa in the first place. Oh yes, they had a 'transition' to democracy too didn't they?
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Damn, am I forced to play the 'some of my best friends are Chinese' card?
No not at all and my finger was not pointed specifically at you but there is an element of we we know best (that is also found in that link that I posted when Craig introduced Churchill into the thread) that is found in many Western ponderings and stands over China. It is paternalistic and, dare I say, often not welcomed. I'm in a country right now which get the same from, mostly, Australia (population 25 million; Indonesia 240 million) and I'm suprised that more Indonesians don't wear the T-shirts I saw in Jakarta with one raised finger pointed at Australia as that is the prevailing attitude to the advice.
I'm not sure if the elections in China are a way to prepare it for democratic change any more than the EFA is a way to ease NZ into nu-Stalinism (although there are those who would argue otherwise). We have to be very careful not to enforce and demand democracy as narrowly defined in the Western European tradition, (which includes the US, which is after all really just a European extension) on the rest of the world.
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Guided democracy is where I see China heading and I swear it's going on in America at the other end.
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The thing that I find most interesting about the democracy in China debate is that after two and a half years here I would have to say that the average westerner is far more anxious about China's political system than the average Chinese. Activists and dissidents aside (and these people are widely viewed as pointless troublemakers) for most people making a decent living trumps all political concerns. Without money, Chinese generally have no access to healthcare, education and a decent place to live - not to mention the prospect of living out their last days penniless without a pension.
The days of of cradle to grave state care and the 'iron rice bowl' are long gone. Now it's everyone for themselves, and with millions of people to compete with that doesn't leave much time for political discussion.
As the central goverment knows, the main challenge to their grip on power comes from outside Beijing, at grassroots levels. Corrupt local officials and police who are not accountable pose a major threat to social stability as the growing number of 'mass incidents' demonstrate.
Meanwhile President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao (fondly known as Wen Baobao - Grandpa Wen) are enjoying huge support here in a year studded with events that have whipped up nationalistic pride.
Anyway, China already has a multi-party system. There are eight minor parties besides the CPC. Just for decoration though you understand. And then there is the much-vaunted 'inner party democracy' they're building on. Hmm... Well it's a start and I suspect also an end to democracy as we know it in China for the foreseeable future.
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Thanks Emma. I think that's help clarify many of the points that have been discussed on this thread. How about another blog soon?
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Activists and dissidents aside (and these people are widely viewed as pointless troublemakers) for most people making a decent living trumps all political concerns.
Yes, that's the general viewpoint expressed by my Chinese friends. As I noted earlier (on this thread or one of the others) China is an 8,000+ year old civilisation and the current Communist system has only ruled China for less than a 100 years. Prior to that it was Emperors and fuedal Warlords. Most Chinese take the longer view (which is why family is so important to them) and believe that Communism will pass too.
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believe that Communism will pass too
Didn't it pass about 20 years ago? I don't think any aspect of the Chinese system would be recognised by Marx or Lenin as Communism (or even Socialism).
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or Mao. I also made that point earlier too.
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thought that this summed things up well, a point I hadn't seen before:
"Although I can (in some cases) understand why, it seems a shame that the country is not yet confident enough to relax and be itself in front of strangers."
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"Although I can (in some cases) understand why, it seems a shame that the country is not yet confident enough to relax and be itself in front of strangers."
probably I'd say because, from a distance, many of those strangers are more comfortable writing their own script, like this rather half baked little rant.
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on whose behalf? Not to be presumptuous, but being acutely aware of a very small and relevant section of society whose rights have been undermined. I think in the main, the thing that has staggered me this year leading up to these Olympics, is that, having been bent over backwards by employers in the name of the event; Myself and other New Zealanders have found despite signing the FTA with the various associated benefits allocated to the heavily populated signee, that We, in negotiating this document did nothing to improve support for New Zealanders working here. Furthermore that advocacy for employed kiwis here, in the afterglow of this monumental signing, is negligible and has been undermined considerably since the days of John McKinnon. Whether that is due to lack of concern for New Zealanders' rights outside New Zealand or just sheer laziness on the part of the MFAT is in question.
What Emma says above is accurate, the main issue for me as i see it with regards to the offshore exponents for a change of political system here is, what are these perceived advantages of democracy?
I can understand the need to press for increased freedoms and rights, but that process is already well underway in China, the more singular issue on western people's minds seems to "when will Chinese get the vote", I see no advantages. Why introduce a hurdle every 3 or 4 years to impair implementation of long term vision?when the new zealand team marched out, I noted they were still dressed like bogans/goths but more deciduously, still waving that tired old flag. And I don't know what i was hoping for, I guess I've been here too long where change happens overnight, but i guess i was expecting someone in the beehive might have thrown caution to the wind and decided to use this occasion to trial a silver fern on black (which would to my eye, actually match the outfits), in the knowledge that if the move didn't come off in the eyes of the New Zealand public then it could be explained as a simple err of judgement. But no, same old 'union jack four stars'.
Helen Clark went into detail about changing the flag on Hardtalk last year, and she went to some lengths to stress that something as important as a flag change would require a referendum, having weathered years of protest and domestic conflict over the introduction of some very controversial laws which rightly or wrongly were passed without referendum.
It just seems that democracy is too often used as excuse to inhibit change and progress, while simultaneously completely overruled if a ruling party has a pigeon to shoot (see Iraq war, see electoral finance act)so from here to there, the primary difference seems to be
totalitarian here-where those with vision can see that vision pushed to its potential at the expense of the minority regardless of the rights of the individual with the sole aim being betterment of the nation as a whole with the primary focus being economic progress enabling a real improvement in the quality of people's lives
democracy there-where those with vision will be ousted and those without will be installed for often arbitary reasons, lacking the balls to initiate anything which will substantially improve the nation economically in the longterm due to fear of being ousted, instead suggesting nationwide referendums to change a flag.
With that kind of leadership from the top down, it's very easy for Chinese from the bottom up to scoff at and ignore suggestions to change its system.
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Whether that is due to lack of concern for New Zealanders' rights outside New Zealand or just sheer laziness on the part of the MFAT is in question.
Hasn't there been a tightening of all business visas and associated requirements. I'd be keen, as a person who may require such a thing in the near future, to know where you and Emma think that may be going in the period after the games?
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"when will Chinese get the vote", I see no advantages. Why introduce a hurdle every 3 or 4 years to impair implementation of long term vision?
I'm sold.
In NZ, we've got this expensive and distracting election coming up to elect a new government that will just tweak around and distract from the need for a long term vision.
What we need to have is a national government with esteemed national figures: Jim Bolger, Colin Meads, Paul Holmes, Don Brash, Eric Watson, Brian Tamaki. All working together to do what's best for us with none of those petty distractions of western-style democracy.
We could all elect leaders from an approved list for our suburbs and villages. The best of those could be chosen to serve at council level, and so on up to the Peoples Parliament. Our leaders would be able to choose strong, independent voices to run the media and television with none of the quibbling we have today.
I'm confident that with such a system we could win the rugby and get to stage the 2025 Olympics.
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All working together to do what's best for us with none of those petty distractions of western-style democracy.
With all due respect Rich, why should any country feel the need to introduce "western-style democracy" to keep westerners such as yourself happy. Democracy does not have to be as defined in the Western hemisphere..I though we were past this semi-colonial attitude.
In Java for example, things are often decided at village level, including who the village will support up at the vote for the next level. It doesn't fit into the narrow box of "western-style democracy" but why should it.
It's worth noting that as a nation China has, without any real help, pulled itself out of a century long hell-hole largely the result of Western & Japanese intervention and it's aftermath. It's got a way to go but boycotting anything is little more than a slap in the face to that and to the Chinese people.
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How's this for outdated perceptions of China. It's by Keith Quinn who is a venerable old thing in NZ broadcasting. But this is a real clanger (taken from his blog on the TVNZ website):
"Now come on! Who of us in our wildest breadth of imagination would have ever thought the outside world would have ever been invited in behind the previously impenetrable bamboo curtain to see such a sight? I feel privileged to be part of the team here seeing that sort of stuff unfold."
THE IMPENETRABLE BAMBOO CURTAIN??!!
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THE IMPENETRABLE BAMBOO CURTAIN??!!
Ha, I've not heard that phrase for a decade or two. I guess I'm lucky to come from a family who has travelled (both my parents were briefly in China in the late 50s) and a I spent a part of my youth in Asia, but I guess for many of Keith's generation being in China is almost unimaginable and the ignorance (innocently held) of how much the nation has changed is something you encounter fairly often, and its trans-generation too.
That said, when I first drove in, I was saying to myself over and over again "I'm in China, I'm in China". It was an extraordinarily exciting thing.
It is an incredible thing to behold and nothing quite prepares you for it.
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The thing that got me when I went to China was just how ordinary and normal everything seemed. I had penetrated the bamboo curtain and it was full of people doing ordinary everyday things like driving taxis and shopping and going to work. Quelle surprise!
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What we need to have is a national government with esteemed national figures: Jim Bolger, Colin Meads, Paul Holmes, Don Brash, Eric Watson, Brian Tamaki. All working together to do what's best for us with none of those petty distractions of western-style democracy.
guys who didn't even make it through high school system, let alone university, governing our country Rich? for real? because what, they've got personality?
they pick them young. they are educated. Hu Jin Tao is an engineer, it makes sense, it's why we don't get subordinates to elect managers in companies. who would I pick? Ms friendly or Ms efficient? Ms friendly. Not a surefire recipe for building empires.
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