OnPoint: Like a hole in the head
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How is Greg O'Connor like a dinner gong -- he should be hit hard at regular intervals
I LOL'd, but it's so true.
What O'Connor is pushing for is ready access to instant retribution, nothing more or less. Judge, jury, executioner. He even concedes that many of the recent shootings wouldn't have been prevented by routine arming - Snee and his colleagues were facing down a rifle, a situation where pistols just don't cut it, and there's no way that covert operators such as Wilkinson would carry firearms - but still wants routing arming to happen. The only reasonable conclusion is that he wants officers to be able to immediately execute those who fire upon them, rather than having to take the extra couple of minutes to withdraw to a vehicle and take firearms from a lock-box.I don't buy the argument that having pistols in every car is a significant escalation from current practice. It's not. Every dog handler has a pistol in their vehicle, all the time. The majority of CIB officers have pistols in theirs (look at how many of them wear empty holsters, even during the day). In South Auckland the night-shift supervisors carry, in the lock-box in the cabin as well as the arsenal in the boot. Firearms are already available within 10-15 minutes at nearly any time of the day or night. The horse is at the horizon, and arguing about whether or not putting firearms in vehicles is an escalation is an attempt to remedy that situation by closing the stable door.
Serious question: Anyone else want to see Halatau Naitoko getting mentioned as much as Len Snee? Or does reminding people of a 17 year-old man killed in crossfire by a police officer fuck with O'Connor, Broad and Collins' narrative?
Actually, Broad is pretty adamant that he doesn't want a routinely-armed force on his watch. The problem is O'Connor, and Collins' spineless pandering to the hang'm-high crowd. Collins needs to make a firm statement that routine arming will not happen while she's Minister, no matter what O'Connor may fantasise in his wettest of dreams.
The only lesson to be learned from Naitoko's death is that shit happens. It's unfortunate, but it's true. The best marksmen in the world could've fucked up that shot, given the confluence of circumstances. How would even a reversal of current firearms policy, never mind a shift to readier access, have changed that situation? It was an AOS officer who shot him, an officer with superior training and one armed from a central arsenal rather than from a (senior) sergeant's vehicle. The only way to prevent a recurrence is to disarm the Police completely. Give Keith Locke his present for every Christmas and limit them to bare hands and short batons. Please let's not, given how unbearable O'Connor already is. -
Via Kiwi Politico, this article from a year ago features the same players being somewhat more cautious than they are today:
Frontline officers will never be routinely armed while he is in charge, the police commissioner says.
Howard Broad, writing in today's Dominion Post, said arming frontline officers would be likely to cause more problems than it would solve.
Greg O'Conner was for arming, but wanted a debate:
Mr O'Connor... did not support all police carrying guns but said the matter had to be looked at [...]
"We said the debate should take place outside the emotion of Len Snee's death and it's disappointing to see that now there's not going to be any debate there needs to be."
Kiwipolitico believes this was all set-up:
Contrary to O’Connor’s noble aim, there has been no meaningful debate about arming police. This fact suits his arm-the-cops purposes, and it’s now clear that those cries for a debate, and the appearance of a debate within the Police, were made with the primary purpose of simply keeping the issue primed and on the public agenda.
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Every dog handler has a pistol in their vehicle, all the time
Bit of an aggressive approach to dog training that - if it won't stop barking, then shoot it.
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I don't buy the argument that having pistols in every car is a significant escalation from current practice. It's not.
Well, I hate saying this but the Herald didn't some useful fact-based reporting that suggests you're right. And it was one hell of a surprise to me.
The only lesson to be learned from Naitoko's death is that shit happens. It's unfortunate, but it's true. The best marksmen in the world could've fucked up that shot, given the confluence of circumstances.
I take your point, as far as it goes, and I'm not suggesting for a moment that the officer concerned decided to cap a nigger. But I think (as Idiot/Savant fairly observed) you've got to ask some serious questions about what kind of policy and training is in place; the kind of questions you can't ask in O'Connor's ear shot without being slagged off as a cop-hater. On the QT, the entirely unscientific sample of cops I know just don't believe "expanded access" is going to be backed up with serious training and support. Broad and Collins should be paying attention; God knows I would.
Greg O'Conner was for arming, but wanted a debate:
I'd like to be proved wrong, but I suspect the only "debate" he wants is a one-sided one where everyone is singing from his song sheet.
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Holes are a must to avoid...
I knew an enterprising farm lad who wanted to set up a business selling post holes to farmers. He did have a problem with packaging.
that doesn't augur, er well for his future...
Firing broadsides...?Actually, Broad is pretty adamant that he doesn't want a routinely-armed force on his watch.
and his watch ends in March next year...
when Collins will be probably looking to introduce Sentry Tech as used by the Israeli Defence Farce, a serious joystick controlled single shoot 'em up... -
I just posted tis on the wrong thread... I think. But hey... Whatever
I just had drinks with a Hungarian couple who were granted work permits on the basis of being economists. I asked them the basis of world currency, they told me it was based on gold. I am going to build a house in Bretton Woods and vanish into thin air.
Boy are we fucked or what. -
Well, I hate saying this but the Herald didn't some useful fact-based reporting that suggests you're right. And it was one hell of a surprise to me.
You've clearly not been paying much attention to things I've said in the past, Craig. Either that or you thought I was making it up. I've said before that firearms are readily available in many cars, that shift supervisors in some areas (South Auckland and Lower Hutt I know for certain, and I'm sure some other less-desirable parts of the country, too) have a pistol at hand at all times on night shifts, and that the general availability of firearms is much, much greater than the general public realise. The debate at this point is, really, a question of making the public aware of just how many police firearms are on the streets at any given moment.
This is not new, either. As one personal example, about seven years ago I attended a house fire on Weymouth Road, Manurewa. A Saturday or Sunday morning. Very much daylight. A couple of CIB officers showed up, and both had holsters on. Empty, but still in plain sight. I don't remember the exact time of morning, so couldn't say if they were coming off a late shift or part-way into an early, but that they had them on at all said a lot.But I think (as Idiot/Savant fairly observed) you've got to ask some serious questions about what kind of policy and training is in place
We know what kind of training is generally in place: very little. But not where the boys and girls of the AOS are concerned. The Naitoko shooter was AOS, so a far, far better-trained shooter than "lesser" cops. From what I have been able to glean of AOS training from various sources, the AOS are very highly trained, even by international standards. They're not the STG, and certainly not the SAS, but they are very definitely not a bunch of plods who go and pop off a few rounds a couple more times a year than everyone else.
For most cops, annual firearms training wouldn't allow them to maintain a B endorsement on a private firearms licence. That's pathetic, and dangerous. Although I disagree with the suggestion that only some officers should receive firearms training, if the choices are that eventuality and increased training for the selected few, or the status quo, I'll go with the former. That we've had nobody shot through general police incompetence is, quite frankly, miraculous. It's actually interesting to look at the particularly controversial police shootings - Chase, Wallace, Naitoko - and note that they were all by AOS officers. Though, that said, if one looks more widely, I suspect that many of the exercises of lethal force by police officers have been by AOS (or the ATS, in David Gray's case) and very few have been by non-specialist officers in the ordinary line of duty. Edwin (?) Leo at Helensville is one exception that springs to mind, but that was also a non-controversial shooting - surprisingly, given that he wasn't pointing a real pistol at the officer who shot him.On the QT, the entirely unscientific sample of cops I know just don't believe "expanded access" is going to be backed up with serious training and support. Broad and Collins should be paying attention; God knows I would.
Broad wants to limit training to general duties and specialist officers, possibly with CIB being amongst the anointed few. The trade-off will be that those officers will get much more, much better training and practice time than they currently do. Which isn't saying much, admittedly, but it would be an improvement. Given that Collins managed to wangle a budget cut for the Police this year, I don't hold out any hope that training for the masses will improve, though.
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You've clearly not been paying much attention to things I've said in the past, Craig. Either that or you thought I was making it up.
Dude, I hang on your every word like a kitten on a branch in a nauseating inspirational poster -- and I wouldn't bother if I thought you were a liar. Not my fault if it's a FTW kind of day if I remember what I had for breakfast come lunch time. :)
And, quite seriously, with all the stick I give The Herald it's only fair to offer some positive reinforcement when they commit fact-based journalism on the front page.
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with all the stick I give The Herald it's only fair to offer some positive reinforcement when they commit fact-based journalism on the front page.
Well, yes, this is true. They don't do it often, so kudos to them for that. And to you, for acknowledging it :)
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Sorry for the long copy and paste, but from a former cop ...........
The moment you step into the police, this sub culture within NZ culture hits you. You are immediately part of the thin blue line. You are part of a team and that team looks after itself. You are special. You are the border between good and evil. The attitudes of the police instructors, armed not with teaching certificates but with ten years exposure to the police sub culture, either consciously or subconsciously invite you into the forest.
To step out of police college is to take the next step into the forest. You are now part of the difference between law and order in the streets where gangs would rule and evil would triumph. But for you and your fellow coppers, society would be a dangerous place. Your mission is to protect society from this evil. Very soon you learn to decide what is evil and what is not. You are no longer just a collector of human rubbish at the base of the cliff but you have an obligation; yes, even a duty to guide the country to a decent society. That direction is best decided by you and others in your sub culture of police, for what better epitomizes the values of a decent society than those cherished by the men and women in blue? Your task is honourable. What better vocation than to rid the country of evil? Thus, achieving this end can even justify the means
When I speak about a police culture, I speak about the environment I have described. It is introverted, self protecting and lacking objectivity. It is a culture which looks after itself and has a certain view of how life should proceed. It is reinforced by drinking and bonding sessions. The 'them and us' ethos becomes tangible. What is more, the culture is working class conservative in its origins. Bigoted and intolerant. Few of its officer corps are university graduates and even fewer hail from private schools.
The police are insular.
If someone has tattoos or hair too long or dresses the 'wrong' way or does not have 'acceptable' politics, then they are one of 'them' and not to be trusted. Conversely liberals are a menace to stability and are even more dangerous than unemployed Maori.
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