Muse: Some Link Crack To Tide You Over...
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BenWilson, in reply to
but I think the reason for this was that fairy tales were all we would have been capable of doing.
I'm pretty sure that's why we weren't doing Hesse. But even fairy tales in German are dark. I thought I'd hit one that was going to be fun when it was about a child getting a Hildegaard doll, but it turned into a story about sexual repression, in which the parents cut off the dolls penis, "turning it into a Hilde", and then the child got the wrong idea from this and cut of her little brother's penis. I pretty much stopped attending lectures at that point.
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bmk, in reply to
No wonder you found it dark. We were only translating traditional fairy tales into German for example the one I did was the Tortoise and the Hare (can't remember the proper title - but I am sure you know which one I mean).
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After that, I actually had a "how much do I really want to engage with this culture?" moment. From reactions to my ability to speak German abroad, it seems like most of the world feels that way - there was a basic assumption that I must have some German ancestry, or have lived there. It seemed weird, no such assumptions would be made if I was learning French or Italian or Japanese. However, even Germans understood my fluency when I explained that I was privileged in my final school year to have one-on-one lessons with a gorgeous German woman, because every last student had abandoned the subject but me. My fluency bounced to 10 times as good as it had been, since that was practically all we did, spoke German about things in our lives. After that, I had a great deal of difficultly studying the subject in a classroom again, it seemed to me like everything that was fun about the subject had had the life sucked out of it, that as an academic subject it was deliberately dull and dark.
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bmk, in reply to
I only took German because my father is German. But then I enjoyed it only because I had a really good teacher - the language itself didn't interest me but the teacher made it interesting. What I liked about German was the logical spelling - it is a completely phonetic language. What I found hard was the complex verb, tense structures. I have vague memories of things called dative, accusative etc without having a clue what they mean anymore.
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BenWilson, in reply to
What I found hard was the complex verb, tense structures. I have vague memories of things called dative, accusative etc without having a clue what they mean anymore.
They're so similar to English, and yet more regular, that I found it easy. The really hard part is gendered nouns.
What I love most is the bizarrely guttural sound of the language. Say "Darf ich bitte noch ein Stück Käse haben" out loud, and it sounds like a vile curse, rather than "May I please have another piece of cheese?".
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bmk, in reply to
Yeah I know what you mean about the sound. In high school my friends and I would have great fun talking to each other in German because the most innocuous words can sound full of threat and meaning. To an English speaking ear German can sound very hard and argumentative. I remember as a young child when I would hear my father speaking on the phone to someone in Germany I always thought he was in an argument and only later found out they were perfectly normal, civil conversations.
The gendered nouns were hard but I found the tenses hard to knowing how word endings were supposed to change according to the tense. Probably because I was never taught how that worked in English 'I just knew'. In fact I learnt more about grammar taking German than I did in English which seems silly - for some reason they don't seem to teach grammar as part of English any more (or at least not where and when I went to school). Which is probably why I always seem to hear "I seen it" "I done it" "He did good" etc. You know you are getting old when you find yourself thinking how ignorant the younger generation is:)
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BenWilson, in reply to
In fact I learnt more about grammar taking German than I did in English which seems silly
That's quite normal, foreign languages students usually have the best grasp of grammar - it's one of the reasons that language study should continue to be pushed in schools - you learn a lot about your own language in the process, by the contrast, something that it's very difficult to achieve in English classes. It broadens the mind, making you aware of the built in oddities that seem so natural that they must be true.
Which is probably why I always seem to hear "I seen it" "I done it" "He did good" etc.
I hear them, but they don't bother me. I don't own the language, it's allowed to change. English, at least, which was always a creole anyway. If it takes on structures and forms from other languages, or just evolves to simpler structures, or phrases loved simply for the sound they make, or yeah, even because they annoy the older people, that's ... well it's inevitable.
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bmk, in reply to
What you say about learning a foreign language makes perfect sense. I have also heard that if you get to the point where you can think in another language that is very mind expanding being able to conceptualise your thoughts with two different symbol systems.
I accept that language changes but for some reason I can't help but find those grammar errors annoying. I use changed language myself eg. 'data is' rather than the traditional 'data are', 'dice and dice' rather than 'die and dice' and am happy using 'fail' as a noun. I suppose I shouldn't be irked by incorrect grammar but for some reason I just can't seem to help it.
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Craig, many thanks for blush-worthily kind words ... and for link to comic. And I look forward to review of book.
"You can work in movie style productions, but have proper control ..."
That applies to comics, too, kinda!
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I use changed language myself eg. 'data is'
LOL, which is one of those ones no-one gets unless they also studied Latin. I missed the laugh in one corporate meeting where a much-disliked boss said "Well, there's only one item on the agenda" (there were supposed to be many but he was ignoring them), when I said "Well then it's really an agen-dum". No-one got it.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
That applies to comics, too, kinda!
Seconded. I read somewhere that if you like film-making but don't have the time or money, then comic book writing is the next best thing. And it easily serves as a storyboard if the film rights are sold, too.
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What I love most is the bizarrely guttural sound of the language.
This might work (flying on instruments only due to work firewall...)
How to make a cookie recipe sound like a Nazi rally.
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BenWilson, in reply to
How to make a cookie recipe sound like a Nazi rally.
ROFLMAO. "Und Keine Eier!"*, with a similar intonation to Hitler pronouncing a final solution.
*translation "And no eggs".
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bmk, in reply to
And not just a normal cookie recipe but a hashish cookie recipe:)
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Only Satan puts eggs in his hash cookies.
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I had a brilliant time 'learning' Old English at University, and spent alot of time wishing I'd studied German as well as French at school. I have a vague memory that it wasn't actually possible to study more than one language at school because of the way the timetable was structured. Although I studied French at school I can't actually speak it, though I can make a fist of reading it.
I currently work at a Swiss company and am surrounded by people who speak at least three languages. Very, very envious of this.
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Christopher Dempsey, in reply to
In fact I learnt more about grammar taking German than I did in English which seems silly - for some reason they don't seem to teach grammar as part of English any more (or at least not where and when I went to school).
That was my experience. Grammar wasn't taught at my school (presumably because it was assumed you 'learnt' by osmosis) and so I learnt about English grammar by learning French in Montreal. I realised one day that learning about English grammar would help me in learning French grammar, so I got out grammar books and started reading.
I have also heard that if you get to the point where you can think in another language that is very mind expanding being able to conceptualise your thoughts with two different symbol systems.
My experience as well. Learning French really brought home to me how language structures our world. Surprise surprise, my PhD is on discourse and planning. I throughly encourage people to learn another language, and it doesn't even have to be foreign; learn engineering/legal/medical language, or sign language.
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Sacha, in reply to
it doesn't even have to be foreign; learn engineering/legal/medical language, or sign language.
+1
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Jonathan King, in reply to
I read somewhere that if you like film-making but don't have the time or money, then comic book writing is the next best thing
Yes! Comics are an excellent source of no time or money.
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Rich Lock, in reply to
Only Satan puts eggs in his hash cookies.
Yes. Interminable stoned conversations about which came first bring everyone down. Or someone starts spouting crap like this.
I'd love to know German. I have a sneaking admiration for their highly practical and regimented national character, and deeply disturbing dark tales would be something of a selling point for me. All the German-language jokes I know seem to be deeply, deeply black.
However, as you point out, German is not widely spoken outside Germany. A few years ago I would have suggested Italian, or more usefully, Spanish - the rrrrromance languages of luuurve. Good for impressing and seducing the laydeez.
Unfortunately, I have a tin ear for languages, but speak Engineer, Legal and Geek passably.
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bmk, in reply to
I throughly encourage people to learn another language, and it doesn't even have to be foreign; learn engineering/legal/medical language, or sign language.
+1 also. In my case learning programming has helped expand my mind and give me a different way of looking at things plus an ability to problem solve in a much more logical manner.
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bmk, in reply to
All the German-language jokes I know seem to be deeply, deeply black.
If you tell a German (gross stereotype here – but play along) that you have a sore hand/head etc he/she will say “well you should just chop it off then” and all the Germans in the room will laugh uproariously. In my two months I spent in the country it got old pretty quick but they seemed to never tire of it.
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When you start to learn te reo, you - I- quickly realise that spatial & temporal dimensions - change.dimensions...
I already knew the ancestral whakapapa patterns- been brought up with them.
But - other stuff!Also, I'd never heard of an intransitive verb before I started to learn Maori in a formal way, as an adult.
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bmk, in reply to
Also, I'd never heard of an intransitive verb before I started to learn Maori in a formal way, as an adult.
And I had never heard of an intransitive verb until I just read your comment which lead me to google it. And I have just learnt another new thing for the day. Language is fascinating. I really think more study of language itself should be encouraged including encouragement of learning second languages.
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Islander, in reply to
+1 – which is a easy way of saying- go to it us all! No-one is ever belittled by learning new ways to hear/read/say things – we all are wholly enhanced-
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