Legal Beagle by Graeme Edgeler

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Legal Beagle: Q&A: John Banks' judicial review

115 Responses

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  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Sacha,

    As Graeme has observed on Twitter, they wouldn’t still be sitting to enable a vote.

    I was speaking based on a hypothetical sentencing now, not on a real sentencing after Parliament has been dissolved. At the time I asked the initial question it hadn't made the news that sentencing wasn't going to happen until August.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Russell Brown,

    the judge said it would be at least home detention.

    No, the judge asked for a report on Banks' suitability for home detention. They're not the same thing. It's a standard pre-sentence report which is necessary for the judge to make an informed decision. If it came down to prison or a fine through a lack of suitability for home detention, that might sway the sentence. Or Banks' counsel might make a very compelling argument for discharge without conviction. But the judge would be remiss to wait until the day of sentencing to ensure he's got all the data necessary to inform his options.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Heh. Well, based on Mr Edgeler's tweets, they might be stuck with a by-election. I'm sure someone will run to stop it being unopposed. Worst case, they'd get to draw a week or two's pay if elected.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    That would be a firm reason for Labour to refuse to support a deferral of the by-election, thus ensuring that ACT criminality remains a foreground issue.

    A firm reason for Labour not to play this game at all is by that point in the electoral cycle if they don't have a sizable chunk of uncommitted voters convinced they have a credible agenda befitting a government in waiting, "ACT criminality" isn't going to do shit.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    The obvious referendum that's going to matter on ACT will be Epsom voters in the general election. With 3 cases of fraud now undisputed, even the most dedicated supporter of the government has to be asking if there's a better way than for them to have to keep voting for criminals. Maybe they could just do it the traditional way, by voting for the National party.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Thanks, Ben -- stay classy or it's going to be a very long and unpleasant three months and change.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    No, the judge asked for a report on Banks’ suitability for home detention. They’re not the same thing.

    I was going to say "that's what it said on Radio NZ" but it occurs to me now that the person who said it was a very excited Graham McCready.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22848 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    A friend points to:

    The Rainy Day

    The day is cold, and dark, and dreary;
    It rains, and the wind is never weary;
    The vine still clings to the mouldering wall,
    But at every gust the dead leaves fall,
    And the day is dark and dreary.

    My life is cold, and dark, and dreary;
    It rains, and the wind is never weary;
    My thoughts still cling to the mouldering Past,
    But the hopes of youth fall thick in the blast,
    And the days are dark and dreary.

    Be still, sad heart! and cease repining;
    Behind the clouds is the sun still shining;
    Thy fate is the common fate of all,
    Into each life some rain must fall,
    Some days must be dark and dreary.

    Henry Wadsworth Longfellow 1842

    She further suggests that Banks characterisation of this as a “wonderful 1930s song” on the steps of the court yesterday may indicate that his defense of “ignorance” may have some basis ….

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    Quiet days in Cliche...
    or wet wet wet...?

    a “wonderful 1930s song”

    I'm thinking Banks is thinking more Inkspots ('40s) than Queen...
    but they are all on the money (as it were)...

    Into each life some rain must fall
    But too much is falling in mine
    Into each heart some tears must fall
    But some day the sun will shine

    Some folks can lose the blues in their hearts
    But when I think of you another shower starts
    Into each life some rain must fall
    But too much is falling in mine

    He must be singing about Dotcom or McCready...

    I can see it in your stars
    Life is so exciting
    Acting so bizzare
    Your world is so inviting
    Playing really cool
    And looking so mysterious honey
    Your every day is full of sunshine
    But into every life a little rain must fall

    Others seem to think
    You are over dramatising
    Problems at work
    So it's hardly suprising
    There's little you can do
    To alter their opinions honey
    You want a clean reputation
    But now you're facing complications
    'Cos into every life a little rain must fall

    But songs aside - that he stays in Parliament is a travesty
    Guilty should be a Red Card or at least a Yellow Card until the election

    - John Key is known by the company he keeps...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I was going to say “that’s what it said on Radio NZ”

    Much as I respect RNZ, they are still fallible. Probably not as fallible as Granny, however, which reported that it requires a 75% supporting vote in Parliament to call a by-election, rather than the other way around.
    That it was McCready, though, is more believable. Can't blame the man for being excited.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    that he stays in Parliament is a travesty
    Guilty should be a Red Card or at least a Yellow Card until the election

    That is not, however, what the law says. The law says "conviction" not "found guilty", and he's not yet convicted.

    From the verdict:

    "Mr Banks is a sitting Member of Parliament.

    He was formerly a member of the Cabinet and a Minister of the Crown. He is a member, and was formerly the leader, of the ACT Party. Mr Banks is the only member of the ACT Party currently in Parliament and the ACT Party currently supports the Government. My verdict may have consequences at a political level."

    You can't really fault the judge for not wanting to kick off the political shit-storm that would be triggered by ejection of an MP so close to a scheduled general election. It's not like he's postponed sentencing from outside the six-month window so as to force a vote on a by-election.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    they are still fallible

    The Press's editorial about Banks refers to a 'Judge Wiley'...
    (they'll hopefully fix it on line, I gave 'em a heads up. but it looks silly in the paper...)

    What really gets me though is that they run the editorial, buried on-line- - but no where else on the Press masthead website does the Banks story show up at all, its like they don't think Chchch folk, of all people, would want to hear about a crooked and guilty sitting MP, wow !
    (same with the Williamson story - it's like it never really happened)

    Not even a link to the Stuff central coverage - weird...

    - who makes these blinkered news decision?
    They don't seem interested in having traffic to their site, or to make themselves a news destination - why bother at all?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    He is a member, and was formerly the leader, of the ACT Party. Mr Banks is the only member of the ACT Party currently in Parliament and the ACT Party currently supports the Government.

    Which makes Jamie Whyte’s apparent lack of interest (on air this morning) so puzzling – is it not his party’s reputation that is being sullied and diminished – like it or not, until September Banks is their ‘elected’ representative in the public eye…

    Kinda like wandering off and leaving a rubbish fire to burn out by itself…

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    Remember that ACT was taken over by the Nats for the last election, after failing to mop up a perceived missing right wing vote they're not really interested any more so I think the old ACT have taken their party back, they're probably not very interested in the usurpers in parliament still using their name

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Tim Michie, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    "Into Each Life Some Rain Must Fall" ... The B-side of the single entitled, "I'm Making Believe"

    Thank you Wikipedia, thank you.

    Auckward • Since Nov 2006 • 614 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    they’re probably not very interested in the usurpers in parliament still using their name

    Probably not, but they're still associated via that name and that association is doing what remains of their reputation no good whatsoever.

    Auckland • Since Mar 2007 • 4097 posts Report Reply

  • Geoff Lealand, in reply to Tim Michie,

    Maybe 'A hard rain's gonna fall' might be more appropriate?

    Screen & Media Studies, U… • Since Oct 2007 • 2560 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Probably not, but they’re still associated via that name and that association is doing what remains of their reputation no good whatsoever.

    I agree - but I think that in their minds they've moved on (Why can't everybody else! don't they understand!) - I do kind of get the impression it's become amateur hour over at ACT

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    I think Key's got three choices:

    - cut ACT loose and actively campaign to win Epsom
    Downside would be that there are quite a lot of ACToid zombies left, and hence a good chance they'd waste a percent or so of votes
    Also, I guess National are loath to behead the corpse of an ACT party that's served them well over the years in advocating for policies the Nats are loath to put forward, like charter schools and privatising the Army

    - have a cuppa with Seymour, indicate the usual deal
    Two risks here: the voters of Epsom are sufficiently pissed off not to join in, and the rest of electorate are turned off National by the increasing sleaze factor

    - say absolutely nothing and see what happens
    Probably the best option, but one with a good chance of terminating ACT. Will Key risk it?

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Paul Campbell,

    I do kind of get the impression it’s become amateur hour over at ACT

    That's hardly a new development.You could even claim that Banks is the most "professional" of the three ACT MPs who've been found guilty of an offence in court. Then there was the ridiculous Trevor Loudon, who was party vice president a few years back. It was Loudon who was famously attacked by a rice flail wielding martial artist after harassing him for driving a Lada. Loudon's beef appeared to be that Lada components were manufactured in the Soviet gulag. Presumably he had no objection to Banks's early 90s advocacy of exploiting the Maori prison population to produce handicrafts for the tourist trade.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Trevor Loudon

    Ahhh! Trevor...
    while he railed against Russian work camps and anything Soviet,
    he was happy for his ZAP mentors to exploit its workers in the Sandwich Factory and burger bars...

    Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    have a cuppa with Seymour, indicate the usual deal
    Two risks here: the voters of Epsom are sufficiently pissed off not to join in, and the rest of electorate are turned off National by the increasing sleaze factor

    There's no downside in doing that, in Epsom. If they don't vote ACT, they'll vote National. But the downside might be around the rest of the country, amongst undecideds making their call about the judgment of Key, if they see him cosying to a party that just had it's leader found guilty of fraud. Key would be thinking about the effect on National's party vote, in continued association with ACT. In actual fact, there could be a net positive reason to kill ACT now, thus discouraging party vote for them, which would probably go to National or nowhere. Gaming it that way, they should actually campaign strongly in Epsom, to completely dislodge ACT.

    But I think that's unlikely, because while it might even make National some votes, it's still extremely convenient to have a party to the right of them. I don't think it's going to be tenable position to be the most extreme right party in the whole spectrum of elected representatives. That's just too naked to the threat of the entire center abandoning them. They could end up in a situation where every single other party would just as easily ally with Labour as them. We already know that Maori Party, Dunne, and NZF can and have worked in government with Labour before, and the Greens and Mana probably would, given the chance.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Not even a link to the Stuff central coverage

    OK, I retract that,
    they do have a comprehensive selection of links beside the editorial
    - but only there, still no trace on the 'front page' of the website

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to BenWilson,

    Perhaps I'm really naive, but the smart move for every politician would be to STFU and let the actual member of the judiciary in this sad and tawdry tale do his damn job.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Perhaps I’m really naive, but the smart move for every politician would be to STFU and let the actual member of the judiciary in this sad and tawdry tale do his damn job.

    No it's not. They can't sit on their laurels just because Justice moves Slowly. They are in an election year, engaged full time in vote winning. Whether Banks gets a conviction will probably not make a lick of difference to public perception, and they need to form their strategy in real time, continually. Politicians won't be making public announcements about convictions, unless they want to be sued, but they sure as hell will be making plans constantly.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

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