Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: These things we must now change

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  • BenWilson, in reply to Moz,

    People arguing for public health based restrictions need to be very selective if they want to keep cars.

    Well, you need to bring up the enormous utility of cars to counterbalance their obvious social cost. I don't think anywhere near the same argument can be made for guns. Most NZers use cars every single day and would be drastically affected if they couldn't, involving massive lifestyle changes. The entire layout of cities is built around them and infrastructure presumes their existence.

    Yes, there is a case for car reduction, and direct harm from accidents is part of that, but it's a many times more complicated. Sustained efforts for many years, probably decades would be needed to eliminate cars without humungous social cost. Whereas rounding up a class of firearm is a matter of a few months and is only a minor cost to anyone who needed them for their work (they can pay a pest controller, or just use other methods themselves).

    OK, there is probably a considerable loss in pleasure for some gun lovers who had become attached to their military style assault rifle. That is unfortunate for them, they will only be able to play with shotguns, hunting rifles, small mag semi-automatics, etc. This is much like boy racers complaining of restrictions applied to their vehicles, or speedway lovers believing they should be able to make an insane racket in a densely populated area at will. No, sorry, your rights to entertainment don't outweigh other peoples rights automatically. In the case of the kind of guns the Christchurch murderer had, the right to not have an entire community slaughtered is quite a strong counterbalancing right.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to BenWilson,

    you need to bring up the enormous utility of cars to counterbalance their obvious social cost

    Ah, no. I think the cost is too high for the benefit. It's *you* that needs to overstate the benefits in order to justify the costs, since you're the one pretending cars are worth the sacrifices we all make so you can drive.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1233 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Stewart, in reply to BenWilson,

    So you're supportive of entitled tossers who move into an area fully aware of a local activity that has existed for nearly 90 years, and then expect said activity to move away because they don't like it?

    Pt Chev • Since Feb 2012 • 72 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Ah, no. I think the cost is too high for the benefit.

    Sure, I understand you feel that way, but perhaps you could at least admit that the benefit is at least an order or magnitude more than military style assault rifle ownership, in order to keep this thread slightly on topic.

    So you’re supportive of entitled tossers who move into an area fully aware of a local activity that has existed for nearly 90 years, and then expect said activity to move away because they don’t like it?

    I certainly think they do have rights, yes. I'm somewhat ambivalent about whether the speedway should move, as it does not affect me, but I acknowledge that the people who it does affect have rights. I mostly raised it as a way of showing how the right to an entertainment can change over time if it starts to affect more people differently, and I think that threshold got crossed with military style assault rifles long ago.

    It's really a tasteless threadjack to continue this discussion of the right to automobiles in this thread, particularly since the last two are directly opposing viewpoints on the matter, and appear to be antagonistic. I'm out of all further discussion relating to car ownership/use rights here.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    To be fair that's something that happens at every Indian airport these days, they've reduced some of the more aggressive security stuff inside the airports, but added a front line screening at the door, I guess to keep out the bombers.

    Contrast this with NZ where normally you almost never see cops with guns, except that one guy at Dunedin airport who just seems so out of place

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to BenWilson,

    It’s really a tasteless threadjack to continue this discussion of the right to automobiles in this thread

    +1

    Meanwhile... David Tipple just doesn't know when to shut up.

    "We didn't ban big white trucks after the Nice murders..."

    Fuckwit!

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Tomorrow is the last day to submit to the select committee, so please consider doing so if you support these law changes. Apparently the NRA-spam is flooding in.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1330 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1890 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    Tipple’s just had his say in front of the finance and expenditure committee. And there’s nothing in the Herald report to suggest he’s developed any empathy over recent days. Guilt doesn’t seem to affect some people.

    Tipple admitted that since March 15, Gun City has sold “dozens, not hundreds” of weapons similar to the ones his company sold to the terrorist. He also said “there were no loopholes in existing law” and called Newshub journos “terrorists”.

    Nothing Trumpian and unhinged to see here folks.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    How is it he's allowed to sell guns in NZ? he was jailed in the US for attempting to smuggle guns (into NZ)

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2622 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    Here's some more background on Tipple, c/ Reed Fleming on Twitter.

    Fit and proper person? Jeez... he barely qualifies as human. It's hard to imagine how Tipple could get even the most basic gun license, let alone operate the biggest gun shops in NZ.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to ,

    why has he even got a fire arms licence at all

    Over 99% of licenses are approved.

    One wonders if the police have the time to do the job properly.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4460 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    One wonders if the police have the time to do the job properly.

    I foresee a flying phalanx of frontline forensic clinical psychologists.
    An authoritative touring Turing Test, enforcing the extraordinary ordinance for operating and using ordnance..

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    As mentioned on another thread, I don't think polling in the immediate aftermath of 15/3 is justifiable, but today's TVNZ poll was conducted 3 weeks later. In fact, it was during Peak Seymour, and (to their credit) when National were supporting the new gun laws going through Parliament.

    Point being, if there were some political backlash, a real mood of protest bubbling under, you would expect at least some movement to ACT, or New Cons, the two current vehicles for disaffected ex-Nats or ex-NZF voters. The grandstanding was there for all to see.

    Reality? Nothing. Not even one extra voter in a hundred.

    So let's not pretend that the Tipples and Loders really represent a sizeable slice of the electorate. There's not the slightest evidence that they do.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1330 posts Report Reply

  • Moz, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Over 99% of licenses are approved.

    Part of that is because there are people who don't even bother applying (the criteria are public), but mostly because there are easy ways to scam the system. But that's because we live in a free society, the police don't already have a tidy list of who you live with, who your friends are, what you post on antisocial media and so on. Thus the applicant nominates their own referees and you'd have to be mighty socially unaware to nominate people who will say "hell no".

    I'm glad to see the poll results, like an overwhelming majority of people I was shocked at how silly the system was.

    Sydney, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 1233 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    Yesterday and today the Al Noor Mosque had two very different visitors: Destiny "Church" and Prince William. What a contrast.

    The latter gave a speech that was moving, heartfelt, personal. And - considering his position - remarkably direct. I'm no royalist, or celeb chaser, but I was seriously impressed. He went a lot further than "thoughts and prayers". It's worth reading/hearing the whole thing:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/112271767/may-the-forces-of-love-prevail-prince-william-praises-nzs-response-to-christchurch-terror-attacks


    Whereas Brian's boys can manage prayers, but seem incapable of thoughts.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1330 posts Report Reply

  • simon g,

    That nice Mr Molyneux is showing his true colours again.

    It's worth noting that the fraudulent "Free Speech Coalition" still have their website up, reminding us that Molyneux was the victim that really mattered to them. (They haven't said anything at all since May, so I guess there haven't been any free speech issues to worry about any more).

    Of course, the FSC can exercise their free speech to attack or defend whoever they want. Or to be silent, and stare at their shoes. It just so happens that there have been far more attacks by their supporters on Golriz Ghahraman than on Stefan Molyneux. Priorities and preferences ... all freely chosen. And saying so much.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1330 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to simon g,

    That nice Mr Molyneux is showing his true colours again.

    True colours indeed. More in this thread:

    https://twitter.com/BenRoss_AKL/status/1148420739344678912

    And no matter how loudly the self-proclaimed freeze peach fundies get worked up, deplatforming & boycotts do actually get results. Deep down, we need to follow the dark money...

    https://twitter.com/saeen90_/status/1148359680982433798

    I’ll leave the last word to the Grauniad: “The international far right’s potential to incite violence has been systematically underestimated and neglected by governments, security forces and tech firms over the past decade. To prevent future far-right terrorist acts, we need a more proactive, globally coordinated response, as we had in the global response to jihadism.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/07/christchurch-mosque-killer-ideas-mainstream-social-media

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5441 posts Report Reply

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