Hard News: The conversation they want to have
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Keir, lolwut? Seriously... That's what you've got?
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Or that prevalence of Down syndrome goes from less than 1:1000 at 25 to about 1:100 at 40.
So down syndrome children are a punishment upon uppity women?
Sick sick sick. As it happens, the age of the father appears to be every bit as big a factor as that of the mother. -
Haha. Yeah, Joe, I so definitely said that.
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I'm sure it's not the same, but it's real and I feel it.
Unless you have total strangers on blog comment threads positing that it's "just biology" that we need to remember about our rapidly-drying wombs, then I would suggest it's not the same. But, hey, we were having a slow start on the bingo cards there.
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Or perhaps it's not sexism, but biology, to suggest that it's better for women to conceive a bit younger than they've been trending towards?
Here's a thought. If it's a decision that you're not directly affected by the consequences of, why not, say, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS?
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Was it FotC who said "life is a shitfight"?
Having had to make some frankly horrible decisions after being on the wrong end of the 1:400 ratio of early-30s gestation, I speak from experience. I can't see anywhere that Morgan is saying "you selfish wimmin need to have babies earlier".
Fact is, having a baby later (for both sexes) increases issues. Are we allowed to discuss this or is it banned?
But: I can't see how it relates to the "40 year old first time parents", other than a convenient segue.
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You look away for a while and someone starts a ruck.
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Here's a thought. If it's a decision that you're not directly affected by the consequences of, why not, say, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS?
But but but ... my taxes ... something something.
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Here's a thought. If it's a decision that you're not directly affected by the consequences of, why not, say, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS?
I don't think I've told anyone what to do at any stage.
What decision are we even talking about?
If anybody gives a single fuck what a person on PAS think about (anything at all, but more specifically:) when or even if they should have children then colour me absolutely shocked.
Anyway, this is a discussion board - on the internet! - idle fruitless chatter is kind of what it's for. Apparently also: people shouting at me, building lots of awesome strawmen, the occasional genuine grievance, and apparently sometimes people conflating me with someone who made lame misogynistic jokes earlier on in the thread (before I ever even posted).
But it's all good. I love this place because it's... ahhh... not kiwiblog.
Ahem.
I kid!
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Fact is, having a baby later (for both sexes) increases issues. Are we allowed to discuss this or is it banned?
Unless you're discussing it in a constructive way to do with the choices imposed upon women vis a vis childbearing and careers and/or you're discussing it with someone you're procreating with...well, let's just say it's very difficult to not sound like you're offering unwanted instruction, mmm? Especially when dictating the basic facts of the situation.
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Oh and the great news is we got on the right side of the ratio 4 weeks ago. If at first you don't succeed, try a different position to keep things interesting.
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But: I can't see how it relates to the "40 year old first time parents", other than a convenient segue.
Me neither, but I thought (whoever it was's) line about parents showing off their flash prams was pretty on the money.
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Me neither, but I thought (whoever it was's) line about parents showing off their flash prams was pretty on the money.
Bro, don't get me started about the one-handed folding action on our Babyjogger City Mini. It's a work of art!
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well, let's just say it's very difficult to not sound like you're offering unwanted instruction, mmm?
This does explain the (entirely unwarranted, IMHO) response to my post, which was - it seems to me - much less judgemental than some of those that went before it.
Well, I did make the crack about the patriarchy.
If there was a drug that could cure addiction, I could get addicted to heroin, take the cure, get addicted again, take the cure again and again... In-fact, we could all get stuck in. knowing there was an out plan, that didn't involve death, institutionalization or group hugs and God.
I think it'd be better to put some money into coming up with better drugs in the first place. Fuck heroin. Talk about your old fashioned crap. I want a little implant that can meter out little doses of love, or joy, or love and joy. Or focus. Or forgetfulness (I'm sure it could come in handy from time to time).
Or Excitement, in a little pill.
OH MY GOD YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE THE NIGHT I HAD AT HOME SITTING ON THE SOFA IT WAS IIIIIINTEEEENSSE!!!!
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Keir, lolwut? Seriously... That's what you've got?
Yes; if you don't follow that the establishment of a normative biological standard and the posited failure of women to live up to that biological natural standard while failing to mention the similar position men are in functions as part of a discourse about unnatural women etc, then well, to be honest.
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Bro, don't get me started about the one-handed folding action on our Babyjogger City Mini. It's a work of art!
Oh you have to use your hand? Must be last years model. *sniffs*
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Steve Parks - XY intersex people are frequently brought up as female (especially if the genitalia are tiny/ambiguous or some parts surgically removed in infanthood...approximately 1 in 1000 people are intersex individuals.
My mother had her kids (quite a few of us!)between 20 & 30: that kind of intensive childbearing (9 pregnancies) can entail other problems for the mother. And it doesnt necessarily prevent the occurrence of Down's Syndrome or other -supposedly age-related* conditions.
* Yes, the evidence is unequivocal that the older a female gets, the more likely she may carry a Down's Syndrome child-same applies to age of her male partner - but I have a 47yr old in my family group who birthed a 'normal' child...everything is chance good people, random & fortuitous-
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Hey Keir, you're absolutely right of course. I didn't even think to say anything about men in my post, and it's clear from the reaction that I should have. Please take it as read that whatever you want to do is cool with me. (And that I know it's not at all important if it's cool with me or not. I'm just saying, you know?)
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Fact is, having a baby later (for both sexes) increases issues. Are we allowed to discuss this or is it banned?
Of course it's not *banned*. This is clearly, as Lucy said, all about the context. (I would like to thank Lucy for her sterling work on this thread, particularly as she is the owner of a still gloriously fertile womb.) We aren't actually having a discussion about issues with older parenthood so far. I hope at some point this thread becomes less about blaming women for 'not doing their lives right' and more about dealing with those issues.
Let me recap. In this thread, we've so far had:
1. Someone bitching at older parents for having the temerity to procreate over 40.
2. Someone bitching at 'Generation X and Y' women for having the temerity to travel and have fun before having children, thereby increasing their chances of birth defects. (The 'and it isn't even for their careers, either!' shit was just the icing on the cake. What, so if it's *important* women can put off sprogging, but if they're just frivolously wandering around India they deserve some shit for it? Nice.)
3. Someone responding to the quite reasonable assertion that women could make their own choices about this, thankyouverymuch, with some infuriating cracks about the 'patriarchy' and our inability to just accept biology! Because it's science! Silly feminists and their obsession with choices, they don't understand their ever-deteriorating egg stores! If only I told them about SCIENCE then they'd all understand!And some of you are apparently shocked - shocked! - that we might be just a tad fucking irritated by the direction of this conversation so far? Really?
I'm sorry to sound like Cranky McGee here, but yeesh. This has pushed nearly every button I have.
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Dude, if you don't want people to get all snarky at you, don't say `lolwhut is that all you've got' to them; it very strongly makes me wish to take apart you apart in detail.
I may not be alone in this.
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@Lucy Stewart
I misplaced mine (selfless maternal instincts) somewhere while dreaming of the all-partying, all-the-time PhD student lifestyle in exciting foreign places. Has anyone seen them?
Scene: the coffee/seminar room of a science lab. A female postdoc has brought in her newborn offspring for introductions. Gathered is a selection of male and female postdocs and PhD students. I (married, two kids) am holding new offspring and have been for a while. Feeling like I am monopolising the opportunity I attempt to offer it to some of the female academics/students. Not one of them would take the baby. I eventually passed it over, to the other married with children male there. Us two and the mother were only ones to touch the baby.
The sound of ticking body clocks was deafening in that room along with the strain of them not being listened to. It's a shit deal I agree, but the biology is pretty unforgiving despite maverick Italian doctors.
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You know, I saw Morgan's post, and I thought, I hope this doesn't turn into a pointless and-and-fro while I'm away making dinner and watching television.
And it did. Morgan, you don't seem to be making any attempt to grasp the point here. Which is that the women here know a shitload more about their reproductive options than you or Andre ever will.
Please don't carry it on, or at least not in this fashion.
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Here's a thought. If it's a decision that you're not directly affected by the consequences of, why not, say, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS?
Can a brother get a 'FUCKING' in there somewhere? Seriously, it seems I cannot leave you guys alone on Mondays... Last week it was Graeme with his heartfelt concern for the downtrodden human rights of Tory varsity kids, now this. For shit's sake.
On Mondays I'm a little busy, 'kay?
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Oh dear. To maybe help soothe things, I know Morgan and he is not a sexist pig who wants to tell you how to run your ovaries. I wonder if the tone of some of those shiftful comments by other commenters has rubbed off on people's readings of Morgan's comments, making it seem like he's a dickface too.
I'm 34, I ain't got no babies and no one's ever asked me why not or suggested I hurry up before my eggs are scrambled. Yet I'm aware of the limits of human biology. I know somethings are not possible, no matter how much we'd like them to be. And if someone - male or female - says that a woman's fertility decreases with age, I don't take this as a personal attack.
And here's something to consider - while a 50-year-old man can get a woman pregnant, how many women of a fertile age (say, 18 to 35) would want to have a baby with some old geezer?
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And here's something to consider - while a 50-year-old man can get a woman pregnant, how many women of a fertile age (say, 18 to 35) would want to have a baby with some old geezer?
You mean there isn't an equation where the how old/fat/bald/disgusting line intersects with the how rich/powerful/well connected/good for your career he is line? Or maybe Ted Turner's toupé really is attractive? and that despite appearances (insert rich old man with young blonde wife) really is a really hot adonis.
Besides women with children do much better when the alimony gets decided than childless women do and being the mother of the next king has always been something worth fighting for, even in the Sultan's harem.
Us males aren't the only sex capable of being shallow and materialistic you know. I notice you don't question why a 50 yo man would want to sleep with a young woman.
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