Hard News: Narcissists and bullies
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Tet Yoon Lee, in reply to
That's an interesting article. It's tallies with the small amount I've seen. Namely that while there's a lot of talk of bullying, the stuff I've seen has mostly been disgusting brags, sometimes of apparent illegal activity, but rarely really any clear attempt at intentional bullying or shaming. I don't know what the original Facebook page was like however and the ask.fm page was so long I quickly gave up.
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Mediaworks issued a statement saying: "As was made clear many times during today's show we in no way condone the reprehensible actions of the `Roast Busters'.
"Today's show asked why after two years there had not been a vigorous police investigation, and sought to understand better why no complaints have been laid.
"Many callers with first-hand experience phoned to talk about their experiences and we were really amazed by their honesty and ease when talking about a very sensitive subject.''
Well, that's alright then...
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11151911
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slarty, in reply to
excuse me sir, just before you go any further, can we talk to the young woman and you? Oh she's smashed, I think she can come with us and not with you. Thanks.
I have, on a number of occasions over the last 20 years (inc. on Courtney Place) driven girls home or put them in cabs and given the fare to the driver. Once I found a girl surrounded by three blokes in a dead-end alley in the UK.
When I share these stories, it's usually an older guy who suggests I might have been accused of something. I have always thought that's a cowards excuse.
As NetSafe say, the thing that's changed is the social media. Maybe we could use that to promote a bit of doing the right thing?
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slarty, in reply to
I’m really, really leery of “but this piece of legislation will fix it!”
So you should be. We have lots of law. It's the cowardly, unimaginative counsel at Crown Law etc. who stuff this up. How many murder victims lay a complaint?
I feel for the Police. I suspect the poor buggers have been fighting the legal machine internally for years, and then made sure this went public out of frustration. I have been there myself, waiting months for some spotty Vic grad to write an opinion.
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Trevor Nicholls, in reply to
With hosts called 'Willie' and 'JT' of course they're going to be dicks.
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Ana Simkiss, in reply to
This:
"I feel for the Police. I suspect the poor buggers have been fighting the legal machine internally for years, and then made sure this went public out of frustration."Is totally unfounded.
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Miche Campbell, in reply to
I absolutely use the term "slut-shaming" to bring home to people who indulge in same exactly what it is they're doing.
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Graeme Edgeler, in reply to
IANAL, but my understanding is yes.
Yes. A complainant can be compelled to give evidence in court. Seems unlikely it would happen, but it could.
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BenWilson, in reply to
Seems unlikely it would happen, but it could.
Presumably that fact can be highly intimidating in this kind of case. Just the thought that you could be cross-examined by a lawyer about your sex life as a teenager, without any ability to refuse to answer any question that the judge thinks is relevant.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
I feel for the Police. I suspect the poor buggers have been fighting the legal machine internally for years, and then made sure this went public out of frustration. I have been there myself, waiting months for some spotty Vic grad to write an opinion.
You know, Slarty, I really hope you’re being a wee bit snarky there because it would be nice if “those poor buggers” elected a union president who’d speak out as least as vigorously as he assassinates the character of anyone who dares suggest an armed police force might just create more problems than it solves.
“Many callers with first-hand experience phoned to talk about their experiences and we were really amazed by their honesty and ease when talking about a very sensitive subject.’’
Yeah, I was really ‘amazed’ the young woman in the audio Russell linked to didn’t tell Jackson and Tamihere to take their victim-blaming, rape apologist checklist and go fuck themselves with it. Sorry, Mediaworks, 'Willie and JT' ran through the rape culture playbook and as long as you keep being corporate enablers you are the problem not the solution.
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Kracklite, in reply to
Well, desperately crossing fingers here, but I'm hoping that this affair provokes sceptical discussion of the rape culture epitomised by "Willie and JT", but my hopes aren't high. I have the sinking feeling that blokes like them will make sure that it's once again normalised.
This case may be astounding and shocking, but I don't think for a moment that it's the first - it's only the first that has had publicity.
Still, maybe that in itself may drive some change...
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Jolisa, in reply to
I’m hoping that this affair provokes sceptical discussion of the rape culture epitomised by “Willie and JT”, but my hopes aren’t high.
Looks like the sceptical discussion is well under way, in this and many other places. It's really quite heartening. So many unsung people over so many years have done the extremely hard yards of articulating what rape culture is, theorising about it and raising consciousness about it, with patience and grace and very little thanks. And now ordinary people are empowered to see it, name it, and fight it, in ordinary everyday language, in daylight. We're not all the way there yet, but it's starting to feel like a turning point...
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Miche Campbell, in reply to
I made a conscious choice in the original post, to call rape, rape.
And I, for one, thank you for it.
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Lisa_J, in reply to
"Highly intimidating for these victims to give evidence. Indeed. Our justice system is designed to try to arrive at the truth by having witnesses give evidence (the accused has the right to silence, of course) after which the lawyer(s) for the opposing side try to break down that evidence, prove it unreliable, challenge recollections, query motives, bring the witness down somewhat in the estimation of others. That is the lawyer's job. Now put one of these young girls in that position. Someone mentioned compelling witnesses, in passing. I would never do that to any victim of a sexual crime. This is why:
In my experience, doing so was the ultimate "slut shaming" episode, a very difficult experience l only got through by a steely determination not to let the system beat me. I was 13, relating events that had happened when I was 12. I gave evidence for the best part of a day, and was bound over on oath overnight, to continue on the next day. Almost all of that time was spent under cross-examination, being made to detail all my innermost thoughts, while the registrar kept asking me to speak up, and to repeat myself. The prosecution lawyer objected at regular intervals but was almost always overruled, so that I was made to answer the most vile questions which I won't elaborate on here. Result: conviction obtained, but at such a cost. I won't detail the fallout. No one hailed me as a hero.
It was all quite a long time ago, and things have improved, a lot, I hope, in terms of social attitudes, and somewhat also in terms of court procedure. But you can't get away from the fact that the court has to be sure the witness is telling the truth. The main method for that in our system is cross-examination.
I don't regret what I did, but I would be very reluctant to ever put a daughter of mine through it. Then again, there is no b
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Miche Campbell, in reply to
Well, when actually does group sex become rape? If for example, a young woman of legal age consents to get grossly intoxicated with a bunch of young men and participate in group sex with them, then gets grossly intoxicated – does her consent status revert to non-consensual?
If she was intoxicated when the sex acts took place, then yes, it does. If a person is incapable of saying "no," then they're also incapable of saying "yes."
It's also possible that one or more of the people involved in the "group sex" may change their mind at some stage of the proceedings. Intoxication also makes that impossible.
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Kracklite, in reply to
Well then, my fingers are forming very interesting knots. I'm glad that Jackson's and "JT's" behaviour is being called out so quickly (if anyone insists on being called by their initials, you can be sure that they're an arsehole).
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Miche Campbell, in reply to
It's troubling, yes, but entirely expected. There is an unspoken rule in society that women are the keepers of public morality, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that some of the girls involved, as well as their friends, see it as Their Job (however subconsciously) to enforce societal norms about what happened.
In other words, to blame the victims and protect the rapists.
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Miche Campbell, in reply to
What could Garth McVicar's lot possibly say that would add to the conversation rather than detracting?
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Miche Campbell, in reply to
I didn't know what a Mazengarb Event was either, so I looked it up on Google.
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Thank you for telling us about your experience, Lisa_J. And for your determination in telling your story, in court and here.
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BenWilson, in reply to
No one hailed me as a hero.
You are, though. That's a terrible ordeal.
I would never do that to any victim of a sexual crime.
A defense lawyer might, though. I don't know if it's likely, though. If there isn't other compelling evidence, the defense would probably prefer the witness not to say their bit. The cross-examination is horrible, but I would imagine that unless some really clear lie is told, then the judge or jury will have a lot of sympathy for the victim, might excuse honest mistakes to get to the main point. It's safer to simply not have any of that evidence on record. Were you called for by the defense or did the prosecution ask you to testify?
I only said it's intimidating that witnesses can be compelled to testify to explain why a witness might refuse to even be interviewed by the police, if they are so afraid of the cross examination, in the case that police press the charges without a complaint. Which they probably wouldn't anyway.
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Well, when actually does group sex become rape?
At the risk of sounding offensively glib, group sex becomes rape the same way every other type of sex becomes rape. What's really squicked me out is that we're into the second decade of the 21st century, and there's still a non-trivial number of people who think sexual intercourse is the one thing a person can meaningfully consent to while unconscious.
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Ben Austin, in reply to
Good points both. I'd like to think McVicar would be a good guy here, but that being said, he almost certainly would have nothing to add
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stephen clover, in reply to
Gotcha. (But are we talking about actually unconscious? We don't know enough of the facts.) Do teenagers understand these technicalities? As Russell mentioned up-thread, and plenty of what I've read leads us to know that at least some of this has been taking place voluntarily on the part of all participants. From experience, some teenagers (hell, pre-teenagers too) give as much credence to a law saying they can't become sexually active until they're sixteen as they do to the ones saying they can't drink or smoke.
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stephen clover, in reply to
[Argh premature]
If you told the kids I grew up with that their sexual relationship (e.g. he 12, she 16; or she 14 he 18) was legally rape, you'd get laughed at. Likewise if you told some teens (ftsoa >= 16) that they could voluntarily participate in group sex no worries, but if they got too drunk then they would then be being raped -- and the others that they would be rapists -- would they look anything but confused?Let's just say I can appreciate how we got here. How do we get out of it -- better sex and ethics education!?
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