Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: If you can't say something nice ...

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  • giovanni tiso,

    Extended versions = the worst form of extra content.

    If you're willing to pay a premium, we'll give you all the stuff that wasn't good enough to make the film in the first place.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    The only DVD commentaries I've found to be worth a damn are the ones that talk about the actual film-making process.

    The only things I bother with commentary on are the collected Whedonverse. I could sit and listen to him talk about the story-telling and character-building processes for hours. But I am a massive fangrrl.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Pollock,

    And there's one second season episode that Moore just shreds

    Was that the one with Lee floating around in space? That episode was lamé.

    And for my money the extended versions of LOTR improved the films considerably. Especially the first one -- the theatrical release just didn't make all the much sense.

    Raumati South • Since Nov 2006 • 489 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    The only things I bother with commentary on are the collected Whedonverse. I could sit and listen to him talk about the story-telling and character-building processes for hours. But I am a massive fangrrl.

    But even then, I don't actually want to listen to Whedon yammer over the opening of Serenity, I want to admire the way he pulled off the very tricky task of laying down a hell of a lot of exposition and character information for the 99.99 recurring % of the human race that don't have every frame of Firefly committed to memory, without making you feel like you've just had someone take an info-dump in your lap.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Was that the one with Lee floating around in space?

    Nope, the one where Lee has a hitherto unsuspected hooker habit, tried being Sam Spade (badly), then tries to get his Dirty Harry on (even worse), and you don't even want to know why there's a black market in children in the Fleet (because it's damn obvious the writers didn't). As a rule, it's the stand-alones that don't work on that show, and in retrospect it might have been a good idea not to expand the order from 13 to 20 episodes after the first season.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    And while we're saying nothing nice about not-so-special features on DVDs, has anyone ever seen a deleted scene or "extended cut" that actually enhanced the reputation of a film.

    The Star Wars ones were generally awful. I remember seeing them and getting exciting at seeing a new scene in a movie I'd seen a dozen times, and then after a few thought "umm, these are shit, and some don't even make sense".

    The more I see the prequels (with my son, who loves them) the more I think that all three should be considered deleted scenes from 4, 5, and 6.

    I prefer the extended LOTR movies. They are closer to the books and actually make more sense.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    has anyone ever seen a deleted scene or "extended cut" that actually enhanced the reputation of a film?

    ... Ridley Scott['s] first thoughts were the right ones

    There was some sort of critical consesus of the view that the additions to Scott's Kingdom of Heaven in its four-disc version added about two stars to the film on a five-star scale.

    And from something closer to home (for Craig), I think there's some agreement about the extended version of Pegasus on BSG. Some of the scenes deleted from other episodes so they'd fit a 44-minute time-slot have also been quite worthwhile.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Josh Addison,

    has anyone ever seen a deleted scene or "extended cut" that actually enhanced the reputation of a film?

    Robocop, for a given value of "reputation" (in that it includes all the extra gore they had to cut out for the theatrical release).

    I find it interesting to watch deleted scenes with commentary, if only to see why the scenes were pulled, or the different directions they thought about going in.

    The only things I bother with commentary on are the collected Whedonverse.

    He does talk a good episode, our Joss. I liked the fact that he was talking all through most of the Buffy episode where Joyce dies, but shut right the hell up when Anya gave her speech. I know the feeling... </fanwank>

    Onehunga, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 298 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    I prefer the extended LOTR movies. They are closer to the books and actually make more sense.

    Having not read the book ... so where the hell did those skeleton guys comes from in LOTR 3?

    Oh, right, someone went and got them to come...

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Jake Pollock,

    Craig: Yeah, that episode was pretty weird too. They kind of went through a string of them -- Starbuck's battles with Scar were not particularly well-judged either.

    That said, I thought the black market episode, even though it was completely out of the blue character-wise, tackled a really interesting aspect of the society that would develop in a situation like that. The main draw of Battlestar Galactica for me (so far, I'm just at the end of season 2) is the way in which they explore the balance between the military and civilian aspects of the fleet in the context of scarcity and a need for militarism. The black market was an interesting aspect of that, even if the episode itself didn't work so well.

    Raumati South • Since Nov 2006 • 489 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    And for my money the extended versions of LOTR improved the films considerably.

    Agreed. They also extended the films considerably. But they will probably be an exception to the rule, since they were able to take for granted right from the outset that the interest in an extended addition would be large, and really filmed the whole thing for the extended addition, then cut it down for the cinema.

    Kyle

    What do I win?

    Heh, surely the experience itself was enough of a win?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Having not read the book ... so where the hell did those skeleton guys comes from in LOTR 3?

    I think Kyle won the right to answer that question. My guess is that most of them came from NZ.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    Having not read the book ... so where the hell did those skeleton guys comes from in LOTR 3?

    Oh, right, someone went and got them to come...

    This was a simplified story line for the movie. In the book the skeletons killed all the Corsairs down south, and then got to go finish dying with honour never to be seen again.

    Because all the corsairs were dealt to, the Southern Gondorians who had been stuck down south to match up to them, got to come up north to Minas Tirith in the Corsairs' ships. And make the decisive turn in the battle.

    The movie skipped over this whole other army down south, and just brought the dead people.

    Which lead to stupid scenes where the undead did nothing for 5 minutes while Legolas killed 20 guys and the giant elephant they were riding on, and then the undead overran the whole city in 5 seconds flat.

    I find it interesting to watch deleted scenes with commentary, if only to see why the scenes were pulled, or the different directions they thought about going in.

    Also the movie will differ in order to get a theatrical rating of pg13, as compared to a dvd rating which might end up at M (with the same group of kids watching both).

    In LOTR:TTT they couldn't show the shot of the orc's head on a Rohirrim spear on the outskirts of Fangorn forest in the theatrical version. This might have pushed the film's rating up a notch. It only made it into the extended edition.</fanboy>

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    And from something closer to home (for Craig), I think there's some agreement about the extended version of Pegasus on BSG. Some of the scenes deleted from other episodes so they'd fit a 44-minute time-slot have also been quite worthwhile.

    Fair call, but I'd agree with Moore that the 44 minute broadcast version doesn't lose anything essential; and while there was some discussion about shooting new material to justify pitching a 90 minute special to the studio, it was ultimately felt that they'd have to pad the episode out with irrelevant filler to do so. There's some nice character beats in extended scenes; and SPOILER WARNING a different cut of Thorne's attack on Athena, which removes the ambiguity in the broadcast version around whether he raped her or Helo and Tyrol intervened before that happened. And it's interesting to see the reaction among fandom to that -- while it's hardly pornographically explicit, it's interesting how some people feel that pushed an already brutal scene over the line, while other felt it removed an 'out' for viewers to rationalise away Cain's brutality.

    But in the end, I think even without the extended cut 'Pegasus' was still a damn fine piece of work.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I think Kyle won the right to answer that question. My guess is that most of them came from NZ.

    And I only half answered it too.

    The army of the dead were cursed, while alive, after they failed to show up, after swearing to do so, to the War of the Last Alliance (the battle at the beginning of Fellowship where Isildur cuts off Sauron's fingers). Despite their fealty to the king, they had actually being worshipping Sauron, naughty people.

    Anyway, Isildur cursed them and said that they would never have rest until they fulfilled their oath to the king's line. Which died out some years later. So they haunted the caverns under the mountains for a couple of thousand years. Then Aragorn, descended from a different line, turns up, proves that he's Isildur's heir, and they follow him, fulfill their oath, and get to rest in eternal peace.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    And I only half answered it too.

    It wasn't actually a question :-)

    I was making the point where the extended edition explained it, and the theatrical cut did not. They just kinda turned up and kicked ass deus ex styles.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    It wasn't actually a question :-)

    :(

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    That said, I thought the black market episode, even though it was completely out of the blue character-wise, tackled a really interesting aspect of the society that would develop in a situation like that.

    Indeed - and this is where the podcasts are interesting. Moore himself has said he'd have liked to do more stories about life among the civilian fleet, but there were practical considerations apart from finding a story which works (which 'Black Market' wasn't) and feeds into, one way or another, the multitude of plots you've already got unwinding. If you're going to develop that - then are you going to expand an already sizeable feature cast? Actors with speaking parts cost money (frak unionised Canadian labour!), and if you're not going to piss it away, then you've got to taken screen time from something else. They have to live and work somewhere -- which means allocating already limited money and studio space to standing sets. (You might want to squint away from this SPOILER But one very practical reason the Pegasus gets destroyed very early in season three is because they needed the studio space for new sets for another storyline. END SPOILER)

    And apparently, SciFi has no problems with rape, suicide bombers, a character being shot in the head (even if she's going to be resurrected in a matter of hours) and various other forms of nastiness. But one male character referring to a ficticious -- and long dead -- President as a "prick"? That's out of bounds.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    This particular comment of yours has just made my day 10% sadder.

    don't be sad Giovanni, remember this is a country that votes for change apparently. just cos you're campaigning on a policy of circumnavigating the law doesn't mean you won't get voted in.
    look at the last bunch that just got in. They got voted in on a "grass is greener, but we're not going to show you the grass or tell you anything about it, just take our word for it" platform.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Which lead to stupid scenes where the undead did nothing for 5 minutes while Legolas killed 20 guys and the giant elephant they were riding on, and then the undead overran the whole city in 5 seconds flat.

    C'mon the elephant scene was good fun. Legolas' answer to Gimli beating him by one orc at Helm's Deep.

    I was making the point where the extended edition explained it, and the theatrical cut did not. They just kinda turned up and kicked ass deus ex styles.

    Believe it or not, that's pretty much how it worked in the book. The entire explanation of how that happened is told as a tale by Gimli to Merry and Pippin afterward. Tolkien had built the moment up very much the way Jackson did. But Jackson (rightly, I think) didn't mess with chronology like that, too hard in a movie. It is probably the dramatic climax of the 5th book (first half of Return of the King), set with Eomer surrounded, Theoden dead, Minas Tirith finally breached, Frodo captured, Aragorn lost in the Paths of the Dead, Denethor committing suicide, Eowyn and Merry apparently dead after defeating the Witch King. Tolkien changes his metre at about that time, into a formal style used for the first time, and the battle is told like a fairy tale. The change of the wind, and the miraculous arrival of Aragorn are meant to be bewildering and wonderful gifts from heaven.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    just cos you're campaigning on a policy of circumnavigating the law doesn't mean you won't get voted in.

    I like "circumnavigating the law". I'll be the Magellan of the Copyright Act!

    My comment was more aimed at your suggestion that we should watch what we say not to spoil future careers in officialdom, though.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    My comment was more aimed at your suggestion that we should watch what we say not to spoil future careers in officialdom, though.

    haha, yeah, well I've never practiced that policy myself but um, it's a public forum, and in nz a reasonably popular one and if you're using your real name that kinda makes you speaking in an official capacity for what ever you represent.
    That's all well an good until you enter territory contrary to your personal view point. like getting a job with a culture organisation like nz on air.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Craig, could I politely ask you not to post any more BSG spoilers, even with the warnings?

    My eye moves faster than my brain can react.

    I've just finished season 2, and season 3 should be in the shop tonight.

    WRT the season 2 eps, I found I enjoyed the ones that got slated (black market), and really got hung up on some of the 'acts of god' in the story arc towards the end of the series - one in particular (won't be more specific in case Jake is still playing catch-up). The end of the series more than made up for it, though.

    One reason I don't go for the extras in situations like that is because I don't really want to know that the makers thought e.g. 'black market' was crap - it retrospectively tarnishes my enjoyment.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    C'mon the elephant scene was good fun. Legolas' answer to Gimli beating him by one orc at Helm's Deep

    Oh the elephant scene was fun.

    I just wonder what tea the undead were drinking while they waited for it to finish, before rampaging over all the orkin in 10 seconds flat.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Craig, could I politely ask you not to post any more BSG spoilers, even with the warnings?

    Fair enough, because half the fun is getting blind-sided with something you think is total bullshit... until it turns out to not only be right, but you couldn't imagine it working out any other way. And who knows, C4 might actually pull digit and we'll get to see at least the first half of season four before the DVDs come out here.

    And thanks to the writers strike and a very long mid-season hiatus, they're not being released in the US until the middle of January. So, I've only got the series four Doctor Who box playing merry hell with the Christmas fiscal sobriety this year.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

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