Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: How much speech does it take?

554 Responses

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  • mark taslov, in reply to DCBCauchi,

    choose art.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    but they are notoriously hard to define in universal terms. I happen to think that it's a good thing, that we don't have a test that forecloses any kind of argument a priori. If that makes me a question dodger, so be it, but that's my answer: we have criteria in law; they are tested by the courts; they are continuously updated as society and the media evolve.

    There goes Giovanni again, saying what I meant but sadly failed to say...

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Yamis, in reply to Paul Williams,

    I've been thinking of saying something similar to what Giovanni wrote there but didn't know how to word it.

    So that's got me off the hook.

    +2

    Basically when it comes to the freedom of speech and over stepping the line it's all about the vibe.

    I do however reserve the right to over step the lines when any sport team I follow is having a barry crocker.

    Since Nov 2006 • 903 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    The lines that DCBCauchi refers to are drawn all the time, but they are notoriously hard to define in universal terms.

    The footer of the bill draws the line.

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Max Call, in reply to Kracklite,

    Actually, I vaguely remember a short story, probably Irish, about someone who had died in a way that meant that they could not be buried in consecrated ground, so they were buried adjacent to but outside the churchyard. One night, the people of the village came out, tore down the wall, and rebuilt it to enclose the fresh grave.

    this gave me the weird but lovely sensation of both smiling and tears welling up simultaneously. Happy and sad.

    Fruit Bowl of New Zealand… • Since Jun 2007 • 153 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Attachment

    At the supermarket, assisting capitalism.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Sacha,

    bigger than I remember.
    has Matt turned on auto-sizing?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    we have criteria in law; they are tested by the courts; they are continuously updated as society and the media evolve.

    There goes Giovanni again, saying what I meant but sadly failed to say…

    Seconded, thirded, πed, whatever.

    Because I’m not an Objectivist, I don’t believe that you can quantify offensiveness and use quanta of offensiveness in algebra, so the old vague measure of “community standards” articulated through a “jury of one’s peers” is preferable to me. It may not be definite, but it’s adaptable, and provides as good a measure as any of the prevailing moral climate as it continues to change.

    Of course it’s all the more cause to worry about the decline of the jury system.

    (Because I can’t resist, if one were to quantify offensiveness, what would one name the units? “Well, I read Ansell’s letter and it scored only 0.38 Carrolls of logical absurdity due to its illogic, but a whopping great 7.21 Murdochs of sheer nastiness”)

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Kracklite,

    That's an idea to riff on!

    Erm, later this evening. After my perfect venison stew ( animal killed by a nephew & grandnephew. Cooked by my mother and me....droolsome.Cheers!~)

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    Eruv the dog the bit you...

    one line
    hooked and sunk
    (the whole thing)

    the line
    you have to draw it somewhere
    (all art begins here)

    straight line
    plumbed
    (with all the right angles)

    off line
    if not over the...
    (not connecting)

    what's my line
    dirty linen airing
    (and pocket lining)

    line seed
    linum - flax - old rope
    (the fibre of society)

    YOU are the line
    draw your own conclusions
    (string theory )

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking, in reply to Max Call,

    I have a family member buried off hallowed ground. The crime he was kicked out of the church yard for was mustering on a Sunday. A few of the family left the Church, the rest of us said the Priest was a dick.
    West Coast true story, but before my time.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1158 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    A line drawn in sand can be obliterated by passing wind.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.

    Jefferson,

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    * if we must simplify politics to geometry, I prefer the two dimensions of economic and social rather than the single Left vs Right.

    That is a view that I share - furthermore IMHO the left and right are irrelevant and a distraction of sorts that fog the real issues.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    * if we must simplify politics to geometry, I prefer the two dimensions of economic and social rather than the single Left vs Right.

    As we all know, the Political Compass codifies that.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5441 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Kracklite,

    To you and Giovanni,

    Media need to set/subscribe to a standard and self regulate its own code to a major degree, where that mechanism fails then there is a role for the “state” to play.

    We have the BSA, Race & Human Rights Commission(ers) the BSA & the NZ Press Council and failing that the Courts.

    Hateful speech should not be suppressed, but countered with yet more speech.

    The state has the role to play in defining what is objectionable, offensive and hateful - and to dealing with those "publications" and publishers/issuers where that material is criminal - hate speech being a crime.

    It is debatable whether any counter speech would have prevented Breivik's violence.
    I have no answers for his actions.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1224 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to DexterX,

    This is interesting:

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2063952,00.html

    Classic denial-of-service attacks. Whereas the NewsCorp hackers merely pulled off more precise vandalism/disinformation/hoaxes.

    In NZ the Web still has some way to go before it reaches the level of Old Media's influence.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5441 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    A line drawn in sand can be obliterated by passing wind.

    Beans are bad for boundaries.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Sacha,

    Beans are bad for boundaries.

    What's this about beans now?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    There should be some sort of Godwin's Law about fart jokes. Like, once you get there, you can't talk about what constitutes art or free speech any more. :)

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    Big Brother to the rescue...
    Well the Americans have solved the problem
    by compelling ISPs to keep a record of all users
    internet use history for at least 12 months...
    I'm sure this will be used responsibly to monitor
    hate speech as well as pedophiles, yeah right!
    - look for this to be added to the TPPA,
    if the US Government survives the next week...

    and more worries about Stuxnet
    - maybe that link should be on the Science thread?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Danielle,

    one can but hope

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    ...and after all the US is renowned for making the
    world safe from dangerous ideas...

    Soy it isn't so...

    Godwin’s Law about fart jokes

    you mean Go Winds Law

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • DCBCauchi, in reply to DexterX,

    The state has the role to play in defining what is objectionable, offensive and hateful – and to dealing with those “publications” and publishers/issuers where that material is criminal

    Yes, it does. As I understand it, Giovanni, Kracklite, and others are saying that the basis on which it defines these things is (and should be) on an ad hoc case-by-case basis according to the political climate of the time.

    As a publisher/issuer, I'm saying that that is not good enough. Actual principles underpin legal restrictions on our rights, and are the ultimate protection of those rights.

    Since Feb 2011 • 320 posts Report Reply

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