Hard News by Russell Brown

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  • Duane Griffin,

    speaking of which, ripping the Naked & Famous cd to my mp3 player was a pain in the butt - are music companies still putting "anti-copy" stuff on cds?

    In the end, Nero did the job. but it pissed me off.

    Man, I hope not. That is exactly the sort of thing that is so counter-productive about DRM.

    Happened to me once. No doubt I could have found a utility to rip it properly but it pissed me off so much I binned the CD and vowed never to spend a thin dime on the artist again. I reconsidered shortly afterwards and modified the vow to never buying from the label, as the artist almost certainly didn't have anything to do with the decision.

    Unfortunately Naked & Famous don't seem to be on emusic, otherwise I would have just bought a couple of songs, and then the rest of the album if I liked them.

    I'll try and remember to check them out next time I'm in NZ. As long as I can find an uncrippled CD, that is...

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 21 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Thomas,

    no need to travel, you got teh interweb

    http://www.myspace.com/thenakedandfamous

    "serenade" is the standout, the rest are ok

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 317 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    You may as well say "They could stop it with a change in attitude" and leave it at that. DRM is useless if people are prepared to pirate music; it is pointless if they aren't.

    well yes, but that doesn't take into account that man at his inner core is a scum sucking thieving opportunist and given the easy option to steal without consequence he will, as is proven by the swell in piracy.
    accepting that trait in ourselves and doing the best to change our attitude then effective drm removes that last edge of temptation.

    Happened to me once. No doubt I could have found a utility to rip it properly but it pissed me off so much I binned the CD and vowed never to spend a thin dime on the artist again.

    which would be a fine example of the attitude that needs to change. why Didn't't you suggest that DRM on cd is fine so long as it is accompanied by access to downloadable versions of the tracks free of charge to a legitimate buyer. wouldn't that have achieved the same goal, ie you with your disc and copies on all players you as a legal owner are entitled to, and an amount difficulty in mass copying that an unprotected disc would promote. All these hissy fit from consumers showing no understanding of the problems music makers face and focusing purely on their own personal inconvenience. That's no way to mediate a mutually agreeable solution.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Mark Thomas,

    scum sucking?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 317 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    scum sucking?

    that was meant in the latin sense of the term, :)

    you know what I mean, we're not that pretty a species if you look at the general behaviour of genus over the course of our existence on this planet. The true and noble nature that we aspire to and like to see ourselves as portraying are more commonly the exception rather than the rule. Still, no harm in aspiring to be good things I suppose but to expect that that is how we're going to behave as a species would be naive. People steal because they can, they'll stop when they're made to, either by being forced to through DRM making it a bloody pain to pirate, or more of a pain than it would be to go through legitimate channels, or if their guilted in to it by society who play against type and look to the big picture and fairness,

    A combination of both would be a safer bet.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    they're guilted

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Duane Griffin,

    Accepting that trait in ourselves and doing the best to change our attitude then effective drm removes that last edge of temptation.

    I agree 100%. Trouble is that little word, "effective". If you accept the simple fact that there is no such thing as "effective DRM" then this whole argument is just a waste of time. Remember, DRM is irrelevant to the person downloading the pirated tracks -- they are DRM free at that point. It is the person who uploads them that DRM needs to be effective against.

    which would be a fine example of the attitude that needs to change.

    Hang on. I go to a gig. I buy a t-shirt and a couple of CDs because I had a great time and want to support the artist. I get home and find that £12 has been wasted as the bloody CD has deliberate errors added explicitly to prevent me listening to it the only way I can. I can't access the music I just paid for. And I'm the one with the attitude problem?

    Brother, tell me you're not in any sort of customer-facing role, because you aren't doing a good sales job here! ;)

    why didn't you suggest that DRM on cd is fine so long as it is accompanied by access to downloadable versions of the tracks free of charge to a legitimate buyer.

    Suggest to who? I've advocated that for a long time, but it doesn't seem like many industry types are listening.

    If the CD liner had said, "go here to download the tracks" then I would have been happy. Or at least not angry; it still would have been stupid and pointless to cripple the CD. But, of course, it didn't. Ironically, the easiest way for me to get the music would have been to download it from a dodgy warez site.

    All these hissy fit from consumers showing no understanding of the problems music makers face and focusing purely on their own personal inconvenience. That's no way to mediate a mutually agreeable solution.

    I accept music makers are hurting. I'm sympathetic, honestly. But the solution you are advocating doesn't solve the problem! If DRM worked then sure, I'd be cool with it. But it doesn't. And not in a "buggy software" kinda way, but in a "perpetual motion machine" kinda way.

    I'm going to keep on going to gigs, keep on buying the merchandise there, keep on seeking out and buying new music. Because I love it and I want to support the artists that make it.

    Shouldn't that be enough?

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 21 posts Report Reply

  • Hamboy,

    Steam!!!!
    That effen useless c**p.
    After going through installing 5 (or was it 6) cds of Half Life 2, it makes you go though so weird decryption process, which on dial up which I had at the time, took, two effen days, (later games using adsl, just took a few hours).
    Then and only then could you play the game. And even then you had to log on to steam to play it until you got to a certain point.
    It let me download Half Live: Source and made me go though the same annoying decryption thing, but wouldn't accept my Visa or Mastercard, so I could activate the game.
    Why did it ask for payment first? Then I wouldn't have waste my time and space downloading.
    It's slow to connect to and downloading updates takes far too long. It's just effen awful.
    That said Counterstrike:Source was still the best multiply game I have played on the PC.
    Have none of these hassles with OrangeBox on the Xbox360

    I've been loving Firefox 3 on XP for a few weeks. And now I'm loving it in Ubuntu, which I have just installed.
    Actually firefox is just a bit of foreplay, ubuntu is getting the full lovin'
    Though there are a few issues with embedded media, so I am using wine to run the XP version to watch or listen to stuff on some sites. But that's not really molliza's fault.

    The problem with DRM is that it only effects those that are trying to do things legally. Eg I can't play songs from iTunes with their DRM, in linux.
    I could search for pirated copies of those songs and play them on any OS or device that can play mp3s.
    But I can't do that if I get legal copies.
    I should be getting something more for paying for downloads not less.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 162 posts Report Reply

  • Hamboy,

    Sorry about that, but when ever I rant my grammar goes out the window. Not that it's any good any other time.
    But I'm sure you get my drift.

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 162 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    there is no such thing as "effective DRM"

    depends on how you gauge "effective".
    I would say that effective in these circumstances would be to take the edge off 'piss easy to steal" making it "hard for the technically stupid", and maybe even eating away at the "mildly ok on a computer but not that great" group, which lets face it is a large part of the computer users out there. If it wasn't as easy as picking it up and walking out the store with it then it would have a great effect on the music market.

    Suggest to who?

    in your comments in this discussion. it was straight to the "I will not support an artists who inconveniences me in the course of them trying to secure their own livelihood" argument, which is one that russell has put forward too.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    It prevents you playing music you've paid for on your own devices. It actually, ludicrously, makes it quicker and easier to get music from pirate sites than to buy it legally.

    Back to my beef: I can illegally download music at much better quality than I can legitimately buy it at. That's crazy.

    My guess is that the music companies and Apple will eventually reach agreement -- Apple has already moved on its pricing model for the TV networks, and Amazon will eventually be big enough that iTunes won't be so dominant.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Dan Slevin,

    iTunes doesn't seem to have much of interest and I have some sort of moral block on illegal downloading.

    I wouldn't underestimate iTunes. I watched Charles Burnett's wonderful Killer of Sheep at Film Soc last night, full of great blues, R&B and jazz tracks, and found almost all of them deep in the database.

    If you look beyond the front page, you'll find most everything - just, as Russell says, at often low bit rates.

    Wellington, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 95 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Tangent: Dan, I was obsessed by 'This Bitter Earth' by Dinah Washington in Killer of Sheep. I went straight to the computer after Auckland Film Society's showing...

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3828 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    robbery, isn't there a thread on DRM you hijacked a while back that covers all this and more?

    The only insight you have given us here us that you think music consumers are scum suckers.If that is what you think of the clientèle why are you in the industry? You must lead a hell of a depressing life.

    Anyway, sort of back on the topic of "evil", I do recommend Organisations Behaving Badly: A Greek Tragedy of Corporate Pathology.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Dan, and maybe to robbery's horror, Youtube

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Dan Slevin,

    why Didn't't you suggest that DRM on cd is fine so long as it is accompanied by access to downloadable versions of the tracks free of charge to a legitimate buyer. wouldn't that have achieved the same goal, ie you with your disc and copies on all players you as a legal owner are entitled to, and an amount difficulty in mass copying that an unprotected disc would promote.

    I would venture that me suggesting anything to Sony/BMG (or whoever) would have precisely zero effect on that happening. No goal would be achieved.

    Wellington, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 95 posts Report Reply

  • Dan Slevin,

    Tangent: Dan, I was obsessed by 'This Bitter Earth' by Dinah Washington in Killer of Sheep. I went straight to the computer after Auckland Film Society's showing...

    And iTunes almost immediately got $1.79 of my money for it - iTunesPlus in fact. I really like being able to buy singles or cherry-pick individual songs like that at a totally impulse-friendly price.

    Wellington, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 95 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    there is no such thing as "effective DRM"

    depends on how you gauge "effective".
    I would say that effective in these circumstances would be to take the edge off 'piss easy to steal" making it "hard for the technically stupid", and maybe even eating away at the "mildly ok on a computer but not that great" group, which lets face it is a large part of the computer users out there. If it wasn't as easy as picking it up and walking out the store with it then it would have a great effect on the music market.

    Suggest to who?

    in your comments in this discussion. it was straight to the "I will not support an artists who inconveniences me in the course of them trying to secure their own livelihood" argument, which is one that russell has put forward too.

    And I'm the one with the attitude problem?

    hell no, I've got bad attitude coming out my shane carter curled upper lip. Apparently drm isn't impossible as it stopped you enough to banish said artist from your list, but a solution to both problems would have been downloadable versions accessible by you and a non copyable disc. you get to listen to the music you like, and people who didn't play the game don't. simple, in theory.

    Shouldn't that be enough?

    in an ideal world yes, but then you're not really the problem are you, but surely you can see that making life easier for you is making the problem worse because others not like you are taking advantage of that concession to you. A lot of musicians are doing the release on vinyl and download for free thing, and vinyl is sort of a drm in itself since you can't easily get an exact copy of its content into your computer to share freely.

    anyway, as you mentioned this argument has been had, and we're merely making more advert hits for russell to profit from in his effort to rival google as evil overlord of cash. luckily I've got ad blocker. wonder if that still registers as an ad hit for his clients?

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    The problem with DRM is that it only effects those that are trying to do things legally.

    not only affects you though, it affects anyone pirating your copies. I think drm is workable, and a viable solution, its just in draft stage at present. seems it can stop piracy for some, maybe not all,

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    I think drm is workable, and a viable solution, its just in draft stage at present.

    Rubbish. You have been very badly informed. If that were the case there would be no need for the draconian legislation that Judith Tizard and others overseas have happily whistled through on your behalf.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Back to my beef: I can illegally download music at much better quality than I can legitimately buy it at. That's crazy.

    so shouldn't you be pushing for and making noise to get better quality downloads available via these sources and effective drm that lets you play these purchases on your multiple sources rather than the narrow focus of drm is bad full stop. look to nick d's future, where everything is happy and push to have those features included in your Utopian world, but be realistic. media owners have to strive to control their product. the whole world can't be earning their living off advertising and selling t shirts. sometimes the end product is the end product and not just a means to earn money off diversions.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    sorry, should have quoted.

    Back to my beef: I can illegally download music at much better quality than I can legitimately buy it at. That's crazy.

    so shouldn't you be pushing for and making noise to get better quality downloads available via these sources and effective drm that lets you play these purchases on your multiple sources rather than the narrow focus of drm is bad full stop. look to nick d's future, where everything is happy and push to have those features included in your Utopian world, but be realistic. media owners have to strive to control their product. the whole world can't be earning their living off advertising and selling t shirts. sometimes the end product is the end product and not just a means to earn money off diversions.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    Rubbish. You have been very badly informed

    and your experience and expertise in this field is?

    you didn't read my other comments.
    I said effective can mean many things.
    I said the alternative of not coming up with a solution is much worse than the inconvenience of not being able to play mp3's on your zune,

    and yeah, there are many ways to attack the issue, like checking everyone's net traffic. personally I'd rather have drm and pretend it works than that but you guys keep going at the drm is evil thing and see what comes next. maybe you'll wish you'd bitten the bullet and stuck with the evil you know.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    you guys keep going at the drm is evil thing

    Which is kind of ironic because you keep going at the "clients are evil". To me that sounds pretty stupid and not a good space for a business to be in, but hey, all I know is software so by all means count me out as having a valid opinion...again.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • robbery,

    you keep going at the "clients are evil".

    When have I said that, I said all people are inherently evil not just clients. :)
    are you pretending they're not?

    I'm an equal opportunities discriminator,

    but my point remains, to focus on drm is evil is to throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm a professional software user with nasty copy protection on it. I'm reasonably good at computer noodling and some of the stuff I use seems impossible to work around illegally. its probably not impossible but its bloody difficult and if its difficult for me then its difficult for 90% of the population. so I own legit copies. I have no need to crack it and its really easier to own the copies and get the back up than to buck the system and get a degree in computer code in order to crack it. That's the sort of system we should see our media comentators push for instead

    if duanes having trouble ripping a disc then that's a success in contolling distribution isn't it. its a failure in pleasing the customer which is the thing that needs to be addressed but in the argument of impossible drm its a vote for doable. add that to a change in attitude from grumpy child smashing his toys to intelligent adult with an acceptance and understanding of why the process is necessary and you've got a workable situation.

    new zealand • Since May 2007 • 1882 posts Report Reply

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