Hard News: For Young and Old ...
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@ Emma:
I was wondering if/when the PAS Laydees were going to weigh in. I've also wondered if 'mums' are more relaxed because they remember what it was like to be a girl, and 'dads' (with daughters) are less relaxed because they remember what it was like to be a boy ie the constant quest to 'score' with girls.
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Again, it was the quality of the advice in Girlfriend that disturbed me. Some of it just seemed reckless.
We didn't end up using the reply to this one:
"I've been sexually active with my boyfriend for a couple of years. We don't use condoms but I have never fallen pregnant. Is there anything wrong with me? During and after sex is the man's sperm meant to stay in you? Because it comes out of me and I don't know if that's normal."
Which was:
When a guy ejaculates, the semen is initially gluggy, then it thins out -- and often runs out of you. Don't be fooled by the outflow though, sperm are hardy swimmers. However, it is also possible that one or the other of you has a fertility issue. I suggest you see a doctor to put the fertility issue to rest and get a reliable form of contraception.
So they got the contraception bit in at the end there, but I think it could have been a little more WTF? You're not using contraception? Do you actually want a baby right now? They don't seem to be big on safe sex, or on pointing out that you don't have to have sex. The only benchmark seemed to be the age of consent.
That was in the "R16" section which was really just the back of the magazine.
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My expectations of the content of Girlfriend magazine were pretty low. What really shocked me was the level of comment from your panellists. An intelligent discussion of this issue would be a great thing . . .
And yes, wow . . .
And wow, it's amazing how a few years in the fashion industry can apparently obliterate the philosophies one learns in women's studies.
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Not withstanding the enlightened PAS female readership who were quite possibly fierce independent enlightened girls and realised early on that they were in charge ... I do worry that todays young girls are growing up without any understanding that they have a choice. There does IMO seem to be an awful lot of peer pressure to perform sexually and this pressure comes earlier and earlier. My 13 y.o. neighbour was seriously propositioned for a 3-way because her best friend had made out with her boyfriend and given him ideas. Her best friend was 'up for it' and was egging her on too. Evidently she did say No (or so she told her parents) but not without a lot of angst and stress first. She didn't want to be labeled as uncool.
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With no information on how old the letter writer is, or whether the couple in question is actually trying to get pregnant, it's hard to form a judgement on that.
They may well want kids, or be not too worried if they show up. Not what I'd do, but I'm not their mum. And if you take the R16 at face value, it starts veering into "nobody's business but their own" territory. You can still legally marry at 16, can't you? A doctor would be better placed to advice on the specific circumstances of the letter writer. The WTF version would sound a little odd directed at a 25 year old.
Kids game those advice columns, too. Perhaps smart editors can sort the "lets see where they snap" questions from the genuine queries, but I recall a bravely unflappable health education person coming to my school, declaring nothing would embarrass her, and having to field questions about positions from 13 year old boys for the next half an hour. Who can make the PE teacher cry was a big sport. It was all talk, no action.
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You know what they say -
Q: Whats the difference between a social liberal and a social conservative?
A: A teenage daughter.
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Nick said:
I was wondering if/when the PAS Laydees were going to weigh in. I've also wondered if 'mums' are more relaxed because they remember what it was like to be a girl, and 'dads' (with daughters) are less relaxed because they remember what it was like to be a boy ie the constant quest to 'score' with girls.
I think that's part of my reaction to this story (father of two girls). There is far more and more accessible information available now than when I was a kid; lots of it is better - clearer, more accurate, less judgmental etc but some of it is clearly the opposite. Dolly/Girlfriend might be preferable to much of what's available online but sadly there's bugger all in the middle-ground.
Perhaps in all this discussion of the pressure on young women, we need to think about how we parent our boys too. Accepting that they are struggling to contain their feelings is ok, but so is teaching them to respect women.
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Not withstanding the enlightened PAS female readership who were quite possibly fierce independent enlightened girls and realised early on that they were in charge ...
I'm not sure 'fiercely independent' is compatible with the emotional shit-fest that is adolescence, and gender is pretty much irrelevant to that.
So they got the contraception bit in at the end there, but I think it could have been a little more WTF? You're not using contraception? Do you actually want a baby right now?
See, I see someone who's scared, and my gut instinct is that the first thing she should be told is that there's nothing wrong with her. Possibly not wanting the lecture is one of the reasons she's directing this question at magazine.
What is different from 'back in my day' is that the average age of first period for a Kiwi girl is now TEN. They're trying to deal with those hormones at an age where some of them still aren't allowed to walk home from school by themselves.
Perhaps in all this discussion of the pressure on young women, we need to think about how we parent our boys too. Accepting that they are struggling to contain their feelings is ok, but so is teaching them to respect women.
I'm not convinced that it's constructive to have 'things we tell boys' and 'things we tell girls'. The basic pressures are the same. We hunted high and low for good puberty books for the children (partly because of my requirement that they not assume that everybody is straight), and we made sure both kids read both books, so they knew what was going on with the other gender as well.
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WTF? You're not using contraception? Do you actually want a baby right now?
I don't know for sure, but I believe a lot of health educators feel that the calm approach is more effective, in the same way as not telling kids that one puff on a joint will turn them into a character in Trainspotting.
Part of the point of these magazines is that they're not written by one's dad. Not to mention that telling kids that something is bad, evil and reserved for adults isn't exactly going to put them off.
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The all-encompassing caution of teenage girls these days is, if something is 'dodgy' it is to be avoided. I want to give a lot of space for teens to make their own decisions (to 'self-monitor', so to speak) but, as a parent, you can't help feeling a little ambivalent. It is not so much the dubious advice in Girlfriend I object to, as the relentless drive to buy and consume, and to fit into proscribed notions of what teenage girls should look like.
I have expressed some of this ambivalence in my latest piece for kiwiboomers ("Good karma in Yokohama"--apologies to SJD!), commenting on how my 14 year old daughter returned from our Japan trip with a French maid's outfit.
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Regarding Maori cultural events overseas: Tame Iti is in Belgium for their version of Shakespeare's Tempest.
Review (in Dutch) here: http://www.urbanmag.be/artikel/1341/storm-op-de-stille-zuidzeeInterview with Iti (in Dutch): http://www.indymedia.be/nl/node/27545
If you need anything translating, let me know.
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my 14 year old daughter returned from our Japan trip with a French maid's outfit
that's because Playboy is sooo passe these days -- all the kids are wearing it.
I'm not sure 'fiercely independent' is compatible with the emotional shit-fest that is adolescence, and gender is pretty much irrelevant to that.
Agreed. But did any of us have to even contemplate threesomes at 13?
(partly because of my requirement that they not assume that everybody is straight)
One of my friends at school was good looking and a bit of a 'stud' - never short of a girlfriend. It was only many years later we learnt he was gay. We had no idea at the time.
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Emma, do you have stats for the average age at first period in NZ being 10? I'm pretty sure it's closer to 12 3/4.
Dolly was what I read in a desperate attempt to fit in in the late 80s.
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Emma, do you have stats for the average age at first period in NZ being 10? I'm pretty sure it's closer to 12 3/4.
Meh, I hit it in a Listener article some months ago, and by then I'd already read it... somewhere.
According to the Ministry of Health, puberty starts for New Zealand girls some time between nine and 14. For boys, it’s a little later at between 11 and 16 years.
The issue, explains Gluckman’s Liggins Institute colleague, associate professor Wayne Cutfield, “is that the average age of puberty has crept down by just a few months and it’s now around 11 for boys and girls”.
My daughter's class is certainly full of girls who without knowing I'd have guessed to be about thirteen or fourteen. It seems more prevalent in the PI girls.
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Tame Iti minder van een belachelijk arsloch in de Nederlandse taal? Misschien is hij beter als je niet kunt begrijpen hem.
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B'duh, sorry, I clipped the end off that quote:
And not only has the average age dipped, but the number of those who start puberty at the younger end of the range has increased.
Theories abound as to why the onset of puberty is moving earlier: unhealthy lifestyles and unstable family environments were cited by British psychologist Dr Aric Sigman earlier this year. His research, reported by the BBC, found that girls were reaching puberty at just over 10, about 18 months earlier than their mothers, and almost two years earlier than their grandmothers.
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It does rather make one wonder if there's a market for a high-tech kevlar chastity belt. I suspect that many well-meaning parents are deluded into thinking that their young teen is a rational and informed being.
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My own theory about the earlier onset of puberty in females relates it to declining male fertility worldwide, and blames the lot on decaying soft plastics in the environment, which apparently release measurable quantities of excess oestrogen into the world's waterways.
Hell, if it can affect shellfish, and it does, it can certainly affect mammals higher up the food chain. Of which we are one. They've noted the effects on polar bears already.
Disclosure: I have virtually no formal qualifications for making this assumption.
Bet it's correct, nonetheless. -
What about nutrition, daleaway? My understanding is that there is a fixed amount of stored fat you have to have for menarche. Once a girl has reached that amount, then periods will start.
If children are bigger younger (not necessarily fatter, just being proportionately larger would do the trick) then menarche is going to come earlier and earlier.
The girls in my daughter's school were definitely showing signs of puberty faster than my peers were in the 70s, but they were also markedly taller and heavier on average too.
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(Back to childhood nutrition again! These threads converge so often.)
I'm not convinced that it's constructive to have 'things we tell boys' and 'things we tell girls'.
This this this. Exactly. I hate the way sex education is gendered, so that it always ends up being 'girls are pressured innocent flowers, but boys are little horndogs'. It's insulting to both sides.
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Try being Gay
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Try being Gay
At least once.
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Thanks Emma. It looks like it's the difference between entering puberty and starting periods that is the confusion.
I finally found some statistics - Section E pg 183 of NZ Food, NZ Children 2002 gives 3% of Maori girls and 1% of Pacific Island girls as starting menstruation at the age of ten or younger. The median age in both those groups is 12, and in Pakeha/Others it is 13.
http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/pagesmh/4330
The actual documents are pdf sorry.
Stephen, I doubt the only thing governing the start of puberty is bodyfat - the rate at which first menstruation has been lowering has decreased - I suspect there is a lower threshold, except for extreme cases.
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They may well want kids, or be not too worried if they show up. Not what I'd do, but I'm not their mum. And if you take the R16 at face value, it starts veering into "nobody's business but their own" territory. You can still legally marry at 16, can't you? A doctor would be better placed to advice on the specific circumstances of the letter writer. The WTF version would sound a little odd directed at a 25 year old.
I can't image a 25 year-old reading Girlfriend -- its salutations generally assume the readers are at school (the winner of the magazine's model quest last year, flown to the Gold Coast for shoots by the Clyne agency, was at intermediate school).
But I guess I'd have kicked off the reply to that letter with "Well, unless you actually want to get pregnant, you're taking a risk not using condoms. And there are these things called STDs ..."
But everyone in the office was fairly shocked by the near-obsessive profile of sex and boys in the magazine and the poor quality of some of the advice. I think it's regarded as a title that pushes the line by the rest of the trade.
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