Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Belief Media

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  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to Islander,

    Sacha – not wrong about karakia not being directed to ’gods’. It is a wonderfully complex matter, involving geanologies, natural forces, and both natural & enforced respect. Supernatural? Nope.

    Although, as Sacha says, there is a strong tendency in some circles to substitute karakia involving phrases like "te Matua, te Tama, me te Wairua Tapu hoki", in much the same manner that my college Maori classroom had bible phrases all over the walls because they were in Maori, so that's, uh....cultural. And this often trips up people who don't know Maori. (Solution, of course: teach more people te reo.)

    I think it's this sort of blurry cultural/religious line that some people are thinking of when they argue you shouldn't just accept religion as cultural. But the devil is in the details, and in the divide between personal observance and practices required from on high. Or, for that matter, bible verses that just happen to be in another language.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Because it's Easter, my favourite mix of that Bulgakov-inspired song:

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    The last words of Yeshua/Jesus, from Bulgakov’s The Master and Margarita:

    I still love the idea of a applying a cream which gets you a nighttime naked flight to the devils yearly party, and your maidservant flying by on a lecherous civil servant converted by the cream to a pig.
    And she just had to let the inhabitants of hell kiss her foot. Beautiful.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    Doesn't stop families from having discussions about various paths of faith, and having books of bible stories for children sitting around or sending kids to Sunday school, for instance. I think it is important that people know about things such as Noah's flood and Jesus as part of basic general knowledge, as there are so many references to such things daily (and how would one ever understand the Life of Brian?) Teenagers interested in vegetarianism will sometimes find their way to Buddhist or Hindu philosophical tenets for these.

    But don't think it is the role of our state schools, which have been secular since the 1870s, to do this.

    I have noticed that there is a trend for secularly-raised students to take Religious Studies at university so those who are interested will find out.

    What schools should be encouraging, in my view, is a love of learning, acceptance and welcoming of diversity, and inclusion.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Islander,

    It is a wonderfully complex matter, involving geanologies, natural forces, and both natural & enforced respect. Supernatural? Nope.

    can you re-link us to that West Coast example about the winds?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Lucy Stewart,

    I think it's this sort of blurry cultural/religious line that some people are thinking of when they argue you shouldn't just accept religion as cultural.

    Especially when you factor in the historic influence of missionaries here and across across the Pacific. The role of churches in the country's Pasifika communities is large but that's not the whole answer in reaching those people (unless you're a Palagi public servant who doesn't know better).

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    What schools should be encouraging, in my view, is a love of learning, acceptance and welcoming of diversity, and inclusion.

    Though unless you believe unquestioning relativism is the only way to go, there also need to be well-supported conversations about common values and expectations across all our cultures. That takes an ongoing adult discussion too.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • andin, in reply to Sacha,

    That takes an ongoing adult discussion too.

    And adult is the operative word.
    Some of the Master and Margarita. Margarita's flight halfway mark NSFW
    Forgive the Russian dialogue

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark, in reply to Sacha,

    When karakia are said in the ECE sector, as they are all the time whenever there are hui of any sort, there is the mistake made of making them fit the Christian model. I have partaken in what I would call more authentic karakia, which make no mention of Te Ariki but instead are about directionality (ie you turn to each direction to acknowledge), about the universe around us, about acknowledgement of our past and future. Far more edifying for me personally. Incidentally, we say karakia before morning/afternoon tea - but it's simply a thanks for food to the universe.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • JackElder, in reply to Jackie Clark,

    it's simply a thanks for food to the universe.

    The universe? I bought these bloody biscuits. The universe didn't get off its arse and get down to Countdown, I did. Tch!

    Wellington • Since Mar 2008 • 709 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg,

    FIGHT!

    Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal George Pell.

    http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3469101.htm

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • Simon Grigg, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    FIGHT!

    Hardly a fight, more like a drubbing. The poor old Cardinal is staggering around in the late 19th Century, with a smattering of anti-semitism and godwin-ism tossed in for good effect.

    And in the UK the Archbishop of Canterbury has stated firmly that "the resurrection is a 'fact' ".

    Ahh, ok...

    Just another klong... • Since Nov 2006 • 3284 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to Stewart,

    led by Ian Grant who has since featured in various family-focused organisations

    My partner and I up and walked on one of Ian Grant and Mrs Grant's "how to parent boys" talks in Christchurch about seven years ago. The old Majestic theatre was packed with parents for the non-secular talk, and no-one other than us seemed to find the Maori "jokes" offensive ( and I am regularly upbraided for my non-PC-ness). Still makes my blood boil to think about it.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2899 posts Report Reply

  • Ross Mason,

    They're at it again.

    Scopes Trial #13 here we come

    Upper Hutt • Since Jun 2007 • 1590 posts Report Reply

  • Will de Cleene,

    It is a wonderfully complex matter, involving geanologies, natural forces, and both natural & enforced respect. Supernatural? Nope.

    This is part of what fascinates me about Maori folklore; the similarities between the culture's animist spirit and the "sum over histories" of quantum physics. I'd had loved to have been in the audience of the Feynman lectures at Auckland University in 1979 at the precise moment he drew a koru.

    Raumati • Since Jul 2011 • 107 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Will de Cleene,

    O dear goodness! so would I!
    The link has eaten quite a lot of my broadband download allowance - but we shall
    continue to explore.
    Thanks for it! (First time I've seen Feynman in the flesh - jittery speaker eh? But wholly good-)

    Just incidentally, the olds had some really interesting ideas - before corruption arrived. Some stuff got preserved in the South (and, shitodearNO! I am not talking Barry Brailsford's creative stupidities!)

    One was, Time is circular. Two was, we live it backwards. Three was- the Sea/Takaroa *always* wins...

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Hebe,

    My partner and I up and walked on one of Ian Grant and Mrs Grant's "how to parent boys" talks in Christchurch about seven years ago.

    It pisses me off hugely that those 'talks' are promoted through state schools, with no mention of religion in the advertising. I'm just 'lucky' enough to be old enough to remember The Herd.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Islander,

    we live it backwards

    Have always been impressed with the idea of us walking backwards into the future looking to our ancestors for guidance. Not sure how widespread that is or where I picked it up. Possibly Whakaue Marae.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Sacha,

    O, I liked Peter! He was modest, never stood on his dignity. And we shared tobacco a couple of times (he was a pipe smoker.)

    Walking backwards into the future is a widespread Polynesian idea – you can know your past, you cant know your future…the olds also had a pretty good idea about genetics inasmuch that many chiefly marriages were organised along ‘good-breeding’ lines…

    Have not ignored your earlier request Sacha - just trying to find it...

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Islander,

    ta. no rush

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Emma Hart,

    old enough to remember The Herd

    I remember watching that as a kid. I have no memory at all of the content except for an interview with Rob Muldoon on the Bible!! I remember him being uncharacteristically affable....

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3895 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to Lilith __,

    an interview with Rob Muldoon on the Bible!! I remember him being uncharacteristically affable....

    He always was affable around election time and with those who did not answer back.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2899 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Hebe,

    Yes, affable was right. I remember him doing a book review on After School (I was a kid, OK?). His favorite book, amusingly, was Robinson Crusoe . Didn't anyone ever tell him no man is an island?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to BenWilson,

    His favorite book, amusingly, was Robinson Crusoe.

    Funny, Keith Holyoake once made the same claim to an interviewer who'd asked him to comment on the persistent rumour that he'd never actually read a book. While he happily admitted to having remained unsullied by literature since leaving school at age 12, he clearly recalled having read "Robinson Crusoe by Charles Dickens".

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Hebe, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Old Mouldy was probably taking the mickey then.

    Christchurch • Since May 2011 • 2899 posts Report Reply

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