Hard News: Angry and thrilled about Arie
575 Responses
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So, if people feel strongly about looters, how about people looting the EQC and taking money from genuine claims. Apparently overseas experience suggests that 10% of claims might be partly fraudulent - are the people claiming for a crack in their house that was around in 2008 the same ones wanting to lynch imaginary looters?
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Russell Brown, in reply to
if Labour decided that having Cosgrove stand up at Question Time
It might make more sense to have someone like Robertson doing that
Agreed. Robertson has a longstanding investment in the disability sector. Cosgrove asking the same question would simply look political and I would not see it as some sort of welching if he didn't ask the question. I'd actually prefer Robertson doing it.
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Emma Hart, in reply to
So, if people feel strongly about looters
Well, a lot of us felt strongly that "our earthquake" being used as an excuse for people to behave like total lynch-mob arseholes baying for "revenge" was utterly disgusting.
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Emma- +2
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izogi, in reply to
So, if people feel strongly about looters, how about people looting the EQC and taking money from genuine claims.
Agreed, in that I think there's plenty of hypocrisy in the calls for harsh-justice-for-looters. We might as well start asking about people who dishonestly identify specific incidents when claiming ACC for cheaper physio appointments. (Given how often I seem to've been led by physios to try and identify things, I'm sure that happens a lot!) There's plenty of dishonesty out there, but I guess you have to start asking where to draw lines in the sand, and it seems that preying on people who are unexpectedly unable to lock down and defend their property, and already being subjected to massive stress, is especially bad... maybe because so many people in Christchurch suddenly found themselves in this predicament.
It's just very sad and disappointing if the Police (both on the ground and in the ranks) were as knee-jerkly affected as everyone else and as the Minister, especially to the extent where long after the events, seemingly nobody's interested in acknowledging and addressing it. Collectively and through selection and training the police are supposed to be more controlled under stress than regular members of the public and have a higher obligation to fix things when they go wrong, which clearly is sometimes hard but that's part of the job.
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Kumara Republic, in reply to
Well, a lot of us felt strongly that "our earthquake" being used as an excuse for people to behave like total lynch-mob arseholes baying for "revenge" was utterly disgusting.
All the more so since it got cranked up to 11 after the 1923 Tokyo quake.
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I should note that I'm not particularly interested in Judith Collins resigning or anything. I'd just like for the madness to stop and Arie and Michael be allowed to get on with their lives.
And also for Inspector Erasmus to be given a talking-to by a grown-up.
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merc,
I on the other hand don't think that Judith Collins is anywhere near approaching the requirements for a competent minister. As for high level police, I am too wary to say here.
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I’m in no doubt that the public strongly supported harsh action on looters after the quakes, so opposing that is not likely to help Arie’s situation.
I would hardly classify 2 lightbulbs as loot in the piratanical sense or the theft thereof as looting. Something of an overvaluation there IMAO Sacha.
No disrespect but I’m not convinced the value of the light bulbs, or the fact that the owner said in hindsight that they weren’t concerned, are the issue. It could as easily have been a property owner who did care about the trespassing or their light fixtures. He was still caught trespassing and stealing property at a time when much of society was especially vulnerable to and fearful of people doing precisely this. Even if police wouldn’t normally bother with someone swiping a $2 light fitting or two, there’s some justification (I think) for doing so if it happens during a post-Earthquake lock-down, because the circumstances are entirely different,
What matters here is that due to Arie’s condition, there’s a very good case to argue that he wasn’t reasoning the same way as a normal person could be expected to. He wasn’t there for the same reasons as a typical looter, and really wasn’t the kind of criminal everyone was so apprehensive about or associates with post-disaster fear at all.
I must take issue with this. Arie's condition was a mitigating factor, but it is one of a myriad of potentially mitigating factors in such an instance. To argue that he should be treated differently by the law due to his condition is to espouse something other than a fair and equal justice system. The expectation that people be incarcerated for excessive durations is justified if you live in a totalitarian state, but not in New Zealand.
To countenance this kind of treatment by our police force and furthermore to condemn it only on account of Arie's condition or that his crime occurred in the wake of a natural disaster is to set yet a lower bench mark in terms of our expectations of policing in New Zealand.
Aspergers or not, no New Zealander, conditioned or otherwise should be incarcerated for 11 days for the theft of 2 light bulbs, be it in sleet, flood, tsunami or nuclear attack. That should be a given.
Focusing on Arie's condition too much simply obscures and abets the administration of this authoritarian brutality on other New Zealanders.
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Sacha, in reply to
Something of an overvaluation there
Sigh. Read what I actually wrote, will you.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
I must take issue with this. Arie’s condition was a mitigating factor, but it is one of a myriad of potentially mitigating factors in such an instance. To argue that he should be treated differently by the law due to his condition is to espouse something other than a fair and equal justice system.
No one is saying that. All anyone is asking is that he be treated fairly and reasonably.
Focusing on Arie’s condition too much simply obscures and abets the administration of this authoritarian brutality on other New Zealanders.
His condition -- or, rather, his particular neurological wiring -- was, however, a significant factor in his actions. Most people don't enter damaged buildings to rescue light bulbs.
It simply bears noting that his thinking was not that of a looter.
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There is apparently a follow up programme on TV1's Sunday on Sunday.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
There is apparently a follow up programme on TV1’s Sunday on Sunday.
It's a more general programme about autism that they've been working on for a while.
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merc,
It would be kind of cool if TV1 interviewed Erasmus as to why he put the frighteners on them.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
It would be kind of cool if TV1 interviewed Erasmus as to why he put the frighteners on them.
It would be cool if Erasmus just deigned to be interviewed.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
It simply bears noting that his thinking was not that of a looter.
Yes. And, Chris, is it OK and not a sign of incipient police state neo-fascism if I still find contemptible shit like (for example) people in post-Katrina New Orleans returning home to find their houses systematically stripped of alcohol, jewellery, prescription drugs with re-sale value etc.?
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
Agreed. Robertson has a longstanding investment in the disability sector. Cosgrove asking the same question would simply look political and I would not see it as some sort of welching if he didn’t ask the question. I’d actually prefer Robertson doing it.
I don't entirely agree with you there - it's hardly out of left field to have a question posed to the Police Minister about Police conduct by Labour's "law and order" spokesman rather than the Health one. Still, I think we can all agree that it would have been nice if someone in Labour had bestirred themselves.
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tussock, in reply to
There is nothing new here except that i should comment that the media interest may have worked against the interests of Mr Smith-Voorkamp.
The police started that by parading him in front of the cameras. As you say, not good for Arie, but that's the whole point. Media will always go for a demonstrative face for their long-running stories, especially when they can see it might have a twist in the tail.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
There appears to be a sub text here that i have missed . The case has become a hot potato with the Judiciary saying to the police “here you deal with this ” and the police saying to the Judiciary “no no you deal with this”
I think in repeatedly referring the case back to police with the implication that they reconsider diversion, the judiciary has made its view pretty clear.
And, as tussock notes, the media have been all over this case from the beginning – because the police made the remarkable decision to subject the two young men to a “perp walk” for the cameras. Arie was “the face of looting” long before he was the persecuted Aspie.
And the police made this decision knowing that the news audience would see his injuries. It’s bloody hard to avoid the view that they were using the media to make a point.
Now, of course, the point they were seeking to make has come back to bite them. The police fucked up, and they continue to fuck up. Someone needs to call off this idiocy.
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chris, in reply to
Sigh. Read what I actually wrote, will you.
I did Sacha, and I'm with you for the most part, but there is a creeping feeling that:
a harder than usual response is no surprise in a mass emergency situation.
Perhaps I'm misreading it, but I find it a mite apologist, a little defensive and ever so slightly perpetuating a cycle. To casually class 11 days in custody for the theft a couple of lightbulbs as a "harder than usual response" is a massive understatement, Earthquake or none, it's not on
is it OK and not a sign of incipient police state neo-fascism if I still find contemptible shit like (for example) people in post-Katrina New Orleans returning home to find their houses systematically stripped of alcohol, jewellery, prescription drugs with re-sale value etc.?
The authorities can best protect peoples' valued possessions by not wasting valuable resources making an example protecting unwanted lightbulbs in condemned buildings.
No one is saying that. All anyone is asking is that he be treated fairly and reasonably.
I'm on your page Russell. I was responding to Izogi's:
What matters here is that due to Arie’s condition, there’s a very good case to argue that he wasn’t reasoning the same way as a normal person could be expected to. He wasn’t there for the same reasons as a typical looter,
Not-withstanding Arie's condition, absolutely anyone stealing two light bulbs from a condemned building is not your typical looter
there’s some justification (I think) for doing so if it happens during a post-Earthquake lock-down
11 days in custody is 5 sizes too big for this crime. He's done his time.
Were Arie the only person I were aware of who has been bitten by this "harder than usual (necessary) response" I probably wouldn't be going to these lengths, but as the publicity surrounding Arie's case is in part obscuring (whilst highlighting) an ongoing harder than usual response, I feel it's worth the effort.
Call me old fashioned but the same old consistent non-violent non-extreme response strikes me as adequate, earthquake or none (with a healthy dose of carefully handled propaganda). That is not what's been happening in Christchurch over the past 5 months, and it's time it stopped.
When people are hanging on by a thin strand, the last thing they need is the authorities pushing them over the edge. And from what I've heard regarding other arrests, it's clear to me that Erasmus and the police's response to Arie's case is indicative of an ongoing insidious problem at ground level there. i.e. not isolated.
Now, of course, the point they were seeking to make has come back to bite them. The police fucked up, and they continue to fuck up. Someone needs to call off this idiocy.
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Craig Ranapia, in reply to
I think in repeatedly referring the case back to police with the implication that they reconsider diversion, the judiciary has made its view pretty clear.
And appropriately. As I said up-thread, I don’t follow Christchurch court reports religiously but a quick Google of "Judge John Strettell" hardly reveals a McVicar-enraging criminal coddler. Even as a matter of simple pragmatism, couldn’t someone have taken the bloody hint?
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Sacha, in reply to
To casually class 11 days in custody for the theft a couple of lightbulbs as a "harder than usual response" is a massive understatement,
Again that's not what I said and I'd appreciate you owning your own beliefs please.
After the quakes, the Police arrested and denied bail to anyone caught in a place and/or in possession of property that did not belong to them. They did not muck around or exercise discretion - partly to protect suspects from vigilante justice. That is perfectly standard practice in civil emergencies the world over and codified in our local law and procedures, whether you approve of it or not.
When I say 'response' I mean the arrest and initial imprisonment, not any subsequent action where consideration of what was stolen or other mitigating factors should play a part. There are obviously problems with that part of the process, and unanswered questions about Arie's injuries during his arrest. But I'm far from "casual" or "defensive" about it.
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Sacha, in reply to
That is not what's been happening in Christchurch over the past 5 months
Feel free to provide evidence of that. If there is a broader pattern it will be relevant for Arie's trial.
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I'm gladly corrected there Sacha. Good on you.
That is not what's been happening in Christchurch over the past 5 months
Obviously cases before the courts are a no go. I've learnt my lesson and won't be compromising this site in that way today (or any other day), I'd suggest asking around:
Civil Defence says anyone found in the red zone without the new pass will be detained by the police.
Residents living in the cordoned areas and the red zone can continue to use photographic ID and proof of address at the checkpoints closest to their home.
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Sacha, in reply to
Thank you.
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