Field Theory: Like a punch in the face
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>You need money to involve your kids in sport whereas this wasn't such a pre-requisite before.
This is a good point but I'm not sure it's a so called "PC" thing(a term I hate as it is often thrown at people/actions that are in fact showing they care for others but that's another arguement) . The increased costs of sport are coming I think from the different associations and their increasing costs to make their sports more professional and to an extent fund their elite. An example here is hockey. I've had my school teams playing in the Saturday morning leagues up until this year. The reason-The Hockey assn charging subs/turf fees that make the cost per child upwards of $50 before they buy their gear etc. For some kids in my school who would like to play this prices it out of their reach. Fortunately another school organises a midweek league that costs nothing, is played on grass and means I have Saturday mornings free. In fact most school organised sports are like this, but once again it falls back on the teachers. It's the different codes and their organisations that incur the costs.
One of my favourite memories is as a 6-year-old playing bullrush with the entire complement of students at Maketu Primary School. Everyone was respectful. No-one got hurt. It was great fun. You'd never see it happen today
Yeah and one reason for that today is that some of our kids are so self centred and angry that as soon as they are tackled (also applies to tackle rugby) they want to get up and argue the toss/punch someone rather than just getting on with the game. Therefore we ban bullrush and only have tackle rugby when a teacher is watching. The last few years at our school has been a bit like that but this years group of kids is better so we've allowed a bit more freedom. Kids today are different than we were.
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MMA looks worse, but seldom actually is. That might be down to the training metaphor - a sport where you have to tap-out for safety reasons encourages a far more highly tuned awareness of when you are beaten and should give up. It also signals directly to the other fighter that it's time to stop, rather than throw in a few extra blows to make sure. These are usually the most devastating of all, when the opponent is completely undefended and possibly unable to protect themselves even from the fall to the mat.
Although, as this article makes clear, if you are unable to tap out (because you're unconsious), or if the ref is bad at their job, you can get pretty severely hurt.
When Paulo Thiago felled Josh Koscheck heavily with a right uppercut and a sweeping left hook, clearly Koscheck was beaten. But such is the nature of MMA that at this point he was on his back, defenceless, and set up for more on-the-ground punishment. There is no count. The attacker must pounce to finish the job, however badly hurt his opponent is. So the referee, rightly, stopped the fight - and was booed.
The opportunities for compassion in MMA are split-second ones. It puts a lot of responsibility on the referee. Boxing, properly monitored, makes a more acceptable compromise between the jungle and civilisation.
....Hamill, who delivered the kick, is a former college wrestling champion from Ohio. But he cannot hear the roar of the crowd. Hamill is deaf. And ruthless. Munoz, who was having his first fight for UFC, lies on the canvas of the caged ring, unconscious. His eyes are shut. Hamill rips two more chilling blows into his limp and defenceless head...
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My point was that compared to 1976 sport has been taken over by the PC brigade.
Whenever I hear or read the 'words' "PC" these days I start to switch off because its become so overused and the person saying or writing about it doesn't explain themselves or when they do their explanation is light on facts but I respect you fleshing out your argument Andre.
But take a look at the initial link you posted. Rippa rugby is a game invented and promoted by the NZRU (funny thing is that if you look at the rules it's closer to league than rugby, but that's beside the point) created to promote catching, passing and getting kids out and about.
But in the pictures of it being played they are all wearing barefeet. It's a game designed for all kids in a primary school class (half boys, half girls, probably most only moderately interested in rugby) rather than those kids who are mad keen on it.
It sucks that its become a more expensive proposition playing sports in some schools but it isn't like that everywhere. You can play in my school cricket team for $30 a year and that is to pay for the match balls ($30-40 each). We use about 6 a year + the money goes towards the cost of buying some new gear. The school bears the vast majority of the cost but heck, the government hardly showers us with cash. We have (and I do not exaggerate) over a hundred sports teams at my school.
My league team at school had a $30 cost which basically goes towards getting the gear laundered. Works out at about $1.50 a game. They buy their own boots.
I don't think sport has ever been free. Somebody has been paying for it whether through their taxes or through their own pocket.
Bullrush takes me back. Every single term without fail at my primary school (from 1981 to 1988) we played bullrush on the first day of term. By the end of the day it was banned because of the danger that kids were getting hurt. And that's years before I remember ever hearing the dreaded "PC" word.
I'd like to say "those were the days" but they weren't. They were much the same as now.
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Although, as this article makes clear, if you are unable to tap out (because you're unconsious), or if the ref is bad at their job, you can get pretty severely hurt.
The exact same thing goes for boxing. The difference being that most of knockouts in boxing are actual knockouts, and they are always from a standing position, which often involves a brutal fall to the ground afterward. Being grounded and pounded looks bad, but it is extremely difficult to land the kind of blows that are par for the course in boxing - your head is supported by the mat (which is soft), you are already lying down, the distance the other person is striking over is shorter, and they can't take advantage of the momentum of either fighter. Furthermore, grappling the other person's arms is meant to happen, rather than being discouraged. Even further, there is never anything like a standing eight count, during which a damaged fighter can collect their wits so that they can continue to take some more punishment.
That's what makes it so dramatic - a sudden reversal can be converted straight into a win, without the surprised fighter being able to lean on a dozen rules to drag the fight out and win on points. They can be banging away on an outclassed fighter trapped under them and in a moment's carelessness find themselves caught in a triangle choke or an inverted armbar, and submitted before an astonished (and usually appreciative) audience.
Certainly injuries occur. Almost every fight there are going to be some nasty cuts. Sometimes arms are hyperextended. Most fights involve some blows to the head which will cause brain damage. But that's not the only dimension to it, and that's what makes it, overall, quite a lot safer. The people who get the most hurt are the ones who insist on turning it into a boxing (or kickboxing) match.
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Even further, there is never anything like a standing eight count, during which a damaged fighter can collect their wits so that they can continue to take some more punishment.
I'm no doctor, but I suspect people who are doctors might have something to say about this.
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Ben, I'm not disagreeing with you. But the reason I linked to that article in the first place was because you seemed to be suggesting that MMA was, compared to boxing, 'safe'. For example when you said:
despite the apparent savagery of it, MMA leads to much lesser injuries
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MMA looks worse, but seldom actually is
All I'm doing is noting that MMA is a contact/combat sport, and thus inherently carries a fairly high degree of risk - I'd say at least as much as boxing.
It doesn't bother me one way or the other. If that's what people want to participate in, or watch? Hey, it's a free world.
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Rich, sorry if I gave that impression. Hell no, it's not safe. But I assert that it's safer than boxing, at least so far as one of the most important human organs is concerned, the brain. MMA is probably worse for the skin, though - a seasoned fighter will have a lot of scars.
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You've nothing to apoligise for. I was just offering a counterpoint.
I've been involved in some contact/combat-type sports, and offered up thanks to the god of headguards on more than one occasion.
I assume MMA is your sport?
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I'm too old to compete, but I do like to spar. I've done so many martial arts over the years, most of them for several years at a time, that I really like the idea of a pan-art-art. I think this appeals to any number of people who like their martial arts. It's the closest thing that exists to a real high level testing ground of the effectiveness of various kinds of unarmed one-on-one combat. Boxing fails on this score, despite the fairly obvious fact that boxing training is almost essential to a decent MMA fighter. It's an art that's all about cross-training, and has led to a new era for martial arts generally, that has broken away from the earlier idea of individual schools and arts refusing to have anything to do with one another.
Currently I do Aikido, which is quite a long way from MMA. It's my first "inner" art, and I like the fact that it can be easily continued until very old age. But there's no competition, so it's always good to watch real competition and see what things work in practice. Probably I will crosstrain in Brazilian-Jujitsu after I get my black belt (probably next year). I had a go recently and loved it, it seemed like a really safe and effective ground grappling art, and one hell of a workout. Aikido is unfortunately not particularly cardio intensive - look how fat Steven Seagal got :-)
But actually, if I was to claim a sport, it would be waterpolo. It's the sport that I made representative level at. I had to give it away though, it killed my skin :-(
I still like to watch boxing. But I think it's getting old and jaded, a bit like fencing. OK, they're both very skillful arts, but at some level the rules of them get in the way and they seem to miss their original point. They are meant to be martial arts, and the study of them was originally intended to confer advantage in battle, rather than be a mere spectacle.
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Mental note: do not piss off Ben
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Mental note: do not piss off Ben
You'd be fine. I've never attacked anyone in my life, outside of the ring, no matter how much they pissed me off. Just don't attack me, and you'll be sweet. You can mouth off as hard as you like, and I'll walk away. Lay a hand on me, though...
I'm actually extremely afraid of fighting, not out of fear of harm to myself, but of fear of harming the other person. This is both from a karma point of view and also a legal one - I don't want to go to prison because I hit someone and they fell down and were severely injured, then find that my training counts against me in court.
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They are meant to be martial arts
I prefer marital arts!
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Aikido is unfortunately not particularly cardio intensive - look how fat Steven Seagal got :-)
Just emulating his mate Sid, though.
Brazilian-Jujitsu: I had a go recently and loved it, it seemed like a really safe and effective ground grappling art
Done a bit of that - mostly for getting out of headlocks or similar. Which, for bonus thread cross-pollination points, is usually how I put my neck out.
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I prefer marital arts!
You're a lover, not a fighter?
Are you really built for speed?
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bonus thread cross-pollination points
So long as you do it scientifically in a replicable manner, young man. And none of that floatin like a butterfly and stinging like a (bumble) bee.
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3410,
Any excuse to drop the Kinks...
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none of that stinging like a (bumble) bee
But... but...that sweet, sweet antibacterial manuka honey!
I needs it, man!
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Done a bit of that - mostly for getting out of headlocks or similar. Which, for bonus thread cross-pollination points, is usually how I put my neck out.
Curious...I was practicing chokes the other day and my neck felt the best it has in ages afterward. I never would have thought a massive munter strangling me would actually be good for me. Something about the traction that it was applying did an excellent job of loosening the muscles. Of course I didn't let them 'crank' my neck, nor is that an allowed move in BJJ or MMA. But it's pretty easy to crank your own neck trying to escape a choke -that's one of those "learn to tap out, dude" moments.
Just emulating his mate Sid, though.
That's a funny article about Seagal. He's the author of all his own ridicule, and not least from other Aikidoka. Most are somewhat happy about the exposure he got for Aikido, and his depictions of it as an effective martial art, but very few agree with his particular interpretation of O Sensei's teachings. His depictions are mostly anathema to the entire spirit of the art, which is meant to be about gentle conflict resolution (whilst carrying a big stick), rather than sadistic executions. That's the movies for you, I guess. Anecdotal evidence from students suggests that he is not actually a brutal sadist in reality. I'm not sure his stuntpeople would agree.
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That's a funny article about Seagal.
Deadspin interviewed a MMA reporter who had a great story about Seagal getting his nuts handed to him by a 60yr old master of some martial art. Seagal was pissed off, claimed cheating, demanded rematch, was beaten again (and in one version of the story lost control of his bowels)
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Heh, I read the same story Hayden. There are many versions of it, my favourite casts Seagal fully as the bad guy, who picks the fight by hurting someone during filming, claims demigod status, is beaten, can't accept it, tries to cheat with a squirrel grip, is thoroughly beaten, shits, is laughed at, runs to his manager and has the guy blackballed. There's something deeply plausible about all of it. It's one of those 'tales of the street' that have made martial arts history. It is possible that a much nicer spin on all of it could be made, in which he was victimized by his stuntmen, but that just doesn't seem likely to me.
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Did you know Seagal fronts a blues band? Seriously.
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When he's not fronting a blues band, he's doing 'real police work'. I can hardly wait!
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When he's not fronting a blues band, he's doing 'real police work'. I can hardly wait!
ROFLMAO.
Funny thing is, Aikido probably is quite useful for police. It's the kind of art in which psychological dominance is a big part of it being able to work at all. If the other person is already on the back foot because you are a cop with the full weight of the law behind you, then they are easy to off-balance, take down, and pin. If, on the other hand, they are coming at you, with skills and nuance, with an intention to trick you and dominate you, then I don't think it's so effective.
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