Speaker by Various Artists

Blatt!!

by Chris Knox

Ya gotta blatt, sometimes ya just gotta blatt.

"Blatt: To make indeterminate noise at widely differing decibel and comfort levels in concert with like-minded individuals or merely your demented self" - Ambrose Bierce, 2005.

Y'know, free jazz, noise, glitchcore, whateverthehell ya wanna call it, something not often heard on these timid shores but something we're (ever so slightly) famous for in those shiny continents to our extreme left and right.

We invented the Dead C for fucksake, a seminal - the artnoise crowd love the word, it's the closest they get to sex - free rock combo consisting of Ralph Hotere-endorsed fine artist Michael Morley, radio archivist Bruce Russell and onetime Verlaines drummer Robbie Yeats. They're hilarious, a geeky mix of wildly disparate talents, only one real musician among em, who are capable of making a two guitar, one drumkit and a laptop racket that can be the most beautiful thing you've ever heard one second and a chaotic mess the next. Some fans prefer the latter. More free, man, less constrained by the bourgeois structures of 20th century rock, man, hippies all, at heart, this audience.

And this Dead C were the feature act of the first night of AKL's third Alt.music festival - more details here - following Lawrence English on laptop and guitar - very much in that order - Tetuzi Akiyama on stretched-out minimalist John Lee Hooker-inspired boogie guitar and Alan Licht, making one guitar noise and deconstructing it with an impressive array of pedals.

Stacks of people turned up - the unashamed hippies sitting crosslegged or, in at least one case, lying prone on the filthy Kings Arms floor - tolerated the boring bits and wildly enthused over the rest. Tetuzi was great, showing off his '40s blues chops in a style not a million miles from Jack White but fracturing them with sudden deafening silences or teasing one interminably repeated flailing chord into an extraordinary orchestra of overtones. A bit of a good 'un and humble with it.

Lawrence was probably in the wrong place with his gentler laptop tonals but by journey's end - and with guitar finally engaged in the struggle - he was creating some gargantuan sonorities not generally associated with a Powerbook. And Alan's short exploration of non-rock noisemaking set the stage nicely for the Dead. C, that is. Who were the most consistently interesting I've ever heard em, despite Robbie's desire to just "drum on a song!", Bruce's need to hear Michael playing a bit more guitar please and the latter's lack of determination as to when to sing. The non-drummers in the band have never pretended to or claimed any ability to play properly. They delight in playing improperly. In these circles this is proper. And, y'know, goddammit, that's just the way it oughta be, you can have too much ability in this music business.

I had a day off on Saturday to watch the cricket, missing some prepared piano, cello, contrabass recorder and native Maori instrument hi-jinks plus a seminar or two but returned to the fray on Sunday night at The Silo - which made for a great sounding venue - to witness Infinitesimal use a coupla oscillators, another laptop, a few pedals and some other indeterminate gear to create some pretty spectacular soundscapes from next to nothing. Followed by Tetuzi and Alan plus Aussie Oren Ambarchi taking their three guitars past a tentative start into an intensely loud and symphonic crescendo then simultaneously shifting into a serene neo-silence singing with half-realised, overlapping melodic fragments. They'd never played together previously. All very cool.

Which probably ain't quite the right word for the lovely Bruce Russell who graced us with a solo guitar feedback loop solo show but who also forgot to check the 9 volt batteries in his two indispensable pedals. Forced to eschew the huge, mountainous sonorities he was hoping to create he made the best of a less than perfect situation and set up a delightfully throbbing, snarling, crooning mini-maelstrom of unexpected beauty in their place. He hated it - but will not impede its eventual release on any label that cares to transcribe his tape, these guys are conmen but rigorously honest with it - I thought it was great.

Lastly we were treated to something completely different. Veteran Dutch Aussie free jazz saxplayer Kris Wanders, his Aussie sidekick on sax and a specially imported Wellington rhythm section who'd only all met a few hours before. (I don't have definitive names for the three sidemen) From first blast of pure adrenalised, whiteheat acoustic noise we all knew we were in for a good, good time. Horns rasped and belted, a concatenation of burred frequencies, clashing and embracing, storming the parapets of London Bar Jazz, joined by nanoclusters of unexpected notes from the double bass and the most explosive, propulsive, unrelenting drumming I've ever had the pleasure to hear.

God knows how long it all went, we were all jaw-dropped hysterical at what these substantially acoustic objects were pushing at us. You shoulda heard the bass solo! You shoulda seen the bass solo!! They stopped briefly, Kris muttered something and they went into a second piece, totally unlike the first, more melodic but no less shattering, the drummer a sweaty mess, the second sax serene and calm, Kris all dark eyes and watchful intensity, belying the sonic storm created by his brass bell.

I was forced to admit that pure musicianship, that much-scorned ability, won the day. And the two Wellingtonians were hopelesly young, generations removed from the horn vets. Brilliant! Blatt at its finest.

And there's more to come, the fest don't finish till Monday 12 with highlights including Stefan Neville as Pumice at 6pm for free at Aotea Square - a man you gotta see to believe, harmonium, drums and vocals creating the most intoxicatingly haunting and beautiful drowning dirges and ballads you could ever wish to hear - and Pierre Bastien on Saturday 10 at Artspace at 8pm - a man who makes music outa Meccano, you need to know no more - who Tall Dwarfs played with recently in France.

Read about him, us and our other collaborators in the latest NZ Musician mag or wait till the full article comes online here in a coupla weeks. He's amazing! As are, I imagine, all the other people who I've never heard performing over the next buncha days at this most worthwhile of events.

Call me a hippie. See if I care.

Blatt!!

Mummy, what’s a feminazi?

by Andrew Heal

It could have been any number of things, but in the end it was a recent television ad for a magazine story investigating that hoary old woman’s journal staple, political correctness in the workplace. Two people with nooses around their necks: one a murderer, one as violator of the PC laws (gasp!) Asked A Female Co-worker If She Had A Nice Weekend. Shock horror! In one’s mind, questions scramble for answers: Has it really come to this? If you are arrested by the PC Police for some mild extra-curricular probing – an honestly, officer, that’s all it was – are you now condemned to a spot of gallows-swinging with a homicidal maniac? And, what with all these lenient jail terms being passed down for rapists and killers and everything, will your well-intentioned faux pas mean more time in the Big House for you than for those twisted perverts?

The answer to these posers is, in order: No, it hasn’t, whatever they’d have you believe: No, of course you’re not, and Don’t be so precious. (The biggest criticism of PC dredged up in the article in question, by the way, is: “the fact that it has become something of a straitjacket occasionally offends my sense of humour mightily”. Quelle horreur!) But we can now safely say that the practice of political correctness is a Class A crime tantamount to social suicide, because to transgress it is punishable, so the Clemengers ad agency would have you believe anyway, by death.

Another question then: Could it be that the only thing we know for sure about political correctness is that nobody knows for sure what it means any more? English writer Christopher Hitchens once described PC as “a sort of mutation of the 60s, in which all the crappy aspects of that decade have been fused. The idealism and élan are defunct, while in hybrid form all the sectarian hysteria, all the juvenile intolerance and all the paranoia and solipsism have been retained.” This I understand. The fact that these attributes also seem to have been devoured by the very people who would call themselves anti-Pcs, I don’t.

“PC” certainly seemed to mean something back in 1990, anyway, when then Metro deputy editor Stephen Stratford wrote his seminal cover story Talkin’ ‘Bout My Generation, which suggested that the trouble with this breed of creature was that they were all actually conservatives – conservative in the uniformity of their thought, offensive with their reverse discrimination, drearily dogmatic in their insistence that to be a true PC you had tobuy “the whole package”: pro-abortion, pro-gay rights, a feminist, probably a Labour voter (the Alliance had yet to congeal), ad nauseam. If you weren’t all of them, you weren’t really any of them at all. Despite the noblest of intentions, PC at its worst ended up seeking something vaguely termed “diversity”, to paraphrase Hitchens again, by demanding something definitely recognisable as conformity.

Stratford’s most interesting argument, however, arrived towards the end of his opus. The worst excesses of PC, he lamented, could trigger a knee-jerk response from neoconservatives, to whom any concession to diversity would come to be seen as the work of some hydr-headed, Waikato University-domiciled devil. Truly, the words of a prophet. The practisers of political correctitude were once accused of ostracising those who didn’t buy the whole touchy-feely package. The anti-PCs, as it turned out, were always going to dump the whole lot on you anyway.

And yet now, you can’t help feel that political correctness – whatever, indeed, it is, if it was ever anything of substance – is as much a preserve of the people who railed against this insidious disease back when we were told it would spill out of American universities into the Pacific and wash up on our previously free and untainted shores, as it is of those beared, jerseyed, bone-pendant-wearers we’re always hearing about. Everybody’s anti-{C. Indeed, being anti-PC is about as PC as you can get. So what say we demand a moratorium on this cliché without a cause before the self-appointed guardians of morality render us ideologically impotent with their anti-PC ennui?

“The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited,” John Stuart Mill demanded. “He must not make himself a nuisance to other people.” The trouble is, he is. He knows he’s right and he won’t leave us alone. If being anti-PC means anything in 1996, it means that you can do whatever the heck you want – as long as it doesn’t stop me getting what I want.

That we’re still talking about political correctness is a travesty in itself. There was a point – it must have been a couple of years ago now – when “PC” looked set to die a well-earned death. If it has remained part of the wider vernacular, it is surely because: a) its employers are so damned unhip they don’t know when a catchphrase stops being funny and begins to bark like a dead dog; and b) because it’s a damn convenient whipping boy. What better than a shadowy, unseen enemy, rich in parody-prone stereotypes which nobody claims to be part of an never fights back? God knows, with the death of communism we needed another one.

PC gave rise to the “silent majority”. (Another phrase which, on both counts, may be as mythical as the one under scrutiny. Who would dare accuse working-class anti-PC heroes like John Banks, Leighton Smith and Arch Tambakis or their middle-class counterparts Rosemary McLeod, Frank Haden and Lindsay Perigo of being backward in coming forward?) In the process, it appears to have given everybody the right to exhume the spirit of Genghis Khan. Listen to talkback radio (an easy target, admittedly) and you’ll hear people justify their reactionary nonsense with the qualifier, “Of course, it’s not very PC to say this …” What does this actually mean, other than “I’m about to bombard you with the scariest conspiracy theory since Mein Kampf”?

They say travel narrows the mind, but lazy catch-alls must come a close second. Here are some phrases which have withered on the reactionary vine: feminazi; niconazi; bearded lady; tree-hugger. Once, their employers lampooned a dreadfully precious breed of person who desperately needed to laugh at themselves. But now the anti-PC industry is an industry like any other, designed to sell books, massage egos, rationalise prejudices, resuscitate careers. They sued to terrorise the establishment. Now they are the establishment. More criminally, could they have become bores?

It could have been any number of things, but in the end it was a phone call from a newspaper columnist unhappy that she should have had a statement about paedophiles – that she’d be relaxed if they all topped themselves – described as “knee-jerk nonsense” in this magazine. The quote adorns the back of Deborah Coddington’s Paedophile And Sex Offender Index. Did the columnist not write it? Yes, she explained, but you see, it’s a column, not a treatise. It has a context all of its own: it’s designed to provoke people.

Fine. One is suitably provoked. If it is a joke, I am not finding it all that funny. And she is evidently happy for the quote to be used on the back of the index? Yes, she says, but she laughed when asked for permission to reproduce her words.

So, here we have a quote from a columnist suggesting that paedophiles do everyone a favour and hang. It is being used to sell a book, even though its author considers it little more than a humorous dig. But presumably Coddington, as the author of the index, subscribes to the concept? Well, no, she doesn’t agree with it at all, but, as she explained in September’s Metro, “it’s a good quote to put on the back cover.”

It’s a good quote to put on the back cover. Why? Because it will help sell the book and it will get people talking about the topic. In other words, it is now acceptable, when you’re taking on a faceless, do-gooding wall of social workers, psychologists, academics and like-minded interfering busybodies, to say something you don’t necessarily believe, for the simple reason that you are Right and they are Wrong. This, if one is not mistaken, is the sort of We Know What’s Best For You wowserism for which we’ve spent years lambasting the PCs.

It is typical, however, of the anti-PC movement, rife as it is with a virulent anti-intellectualism which it deludes itself into thinking is common sense. Anything to emerge from a university – and Waikato University in particular – is to be treated with suspicion. Yes, matriculating in a place where one must be biculturally appropriate about everything must be a crashing bore, particularly if it supplants academic reason as the priority of choice, but surely not as tiresome as being biculturally inappropriate about everything has become.

Too harsh? A moment before you lob the “bleeding heart liberal” grenade over the trenches: I come to bury PC, not to praise it. Metro has always challenged accepted wisdom and doublespeak. The thing is, it’s now coming at us from all sides. So much bilge is being peddled that it’s hard to know who the enemy is any more. Yes, there are dullards out there who would have you believe that being differently abled is somehow less of a hardship than being disabled (though, let’s face it, that whole thing about how short people were going to end up being called “vertically challenged” never happened, did it?)

But while we’re excising sweet nothings from the vernacular, why stop with those hawked by the so-called liverals? What say we cremate: “downsizing”, “flexible labour market”, “the open economy”, “the Decent Society”, “turning back the clock”, “the politics of envy”, “the chattering classes” (Roger Kerr’s vague explanation of this mysterious phrase in last month’s Metro surely confirms that nobody knows who comprises this subspecies other than the people who refer to it), “crown health enterprises” who save the lives (presuming such an act doesn’t hinder their profit-driven nature) of “clients”, “ordinary Kiwis”, “accountability”, “direct democracy”, “family values”, “morality”, “New Zealand’s Big Game”, “New Zealand for New Zealanders”, “New Zealand’s News Leader”, “Watch Your World With Us”, “The Best Things In Life Are 3”, “the global economy”, “Generation X”, “market-friendly”, “the information superhighway” and any phrase used to sell City Life.

There, that feels better, doesn’t it? When you consider this wearisome abundance of gunk, it’s becoming very hard to believe that political correctness, in its original liberal Left incarnation at least, ever had any greater designs on our way of life that anything else.

It could have been any number of things, but in the end it was North & South freelancer David Cohen (a contributor to Lindsay Perigo’s Free Radical organ) pressing Waikato University vice-chancellor and former British MP Bryan Gould on the sins of political correctness. PC, Gould suggested, “is very often a norm of civilised behaviour that you would take for granted in a family or group of friends. And we’re just saying that that’s the way we’d like to behave as an institution.” Despite the assertion that these people are everywhere, this is the closest I can remember to anybody actually coming out and declaring themselves to be a practising political corrector.

But, while Gould’s admission og guilt was a start, PC remained elusive. It was time to stop prevaricating, put down the pen and to go out and find it. As it turned out, Whitcoulls was selling a book composed by one Phillip Jackson called Fighting Political Correctness. I hot-footed it down to Queen Street and eureka! There it was in a special section reserved for, erm, enthusiastic authors, shall we say, alongside Stuart C Scott’s Travesty of Waitangi and the Paedophile And Sex Offender Index. Within these pages, one learns that political correctness is “a subset of left-wing philosophy”. Aha! It all becomes clear. It’s those goddam lefties. Political correctness, Mr Jackson illuminates, is about “redefining the lower levels of stupidity”, which, by sweet coincidence, makes his 104-page attempt to justify his own prejudices one of the most politically correct works of the late 20th century.

Still the foreword was a bit of a hoot. “It you are weary of [the] tree-hugging, save-the-gay-whales brigade,” Avondale College principal, born-again Christian and future prime minister (his predition) Phil Raffills writes, “then this book is for you!” Love that gay-whales jibe – has any gag matured so gracefully over time? Sock it to me some more, sir. What about those “government-supported PC institutions wearing our patience thin”, viz, the Human Rights Commission, Youth Law, Family Planning. What about, he goes on, those cursed Civil Libertarians?

Well, what about them? Raffills’ is the worst sort of anti-PC behaviour: that which accuses various organizations of paternalistic prejudices and then demands that they be replaced by another brand of paternalistic prejudice. “The next time you hear a truly funny, nonoffensive joke about the Irishman, Scotsman, Englishman,” he exhorts, “laugh out aloud.” I would, but that joke isn’t funny any more. Ah, I hear you say, but not everybody who considers political correctness to be the root of all evil is as committed to the cause as Mr Raffills. Yet that’s the very tactic the neoconservatives have been employing for years: they conned us into thinking that the exceptions proved the rule, when they just made it easier to attack.

A short PC hysteria quiz:
* Is it true that somebody complained to TVNZ that one of CoverStory’s fictional characters was violating the Smokefree Environments Act by smoking on the set of the equally fictional current affairs show she works for? Yes. Isn’t that rather barmy? It’s bonkers. But isn’t it also true that it’s rather nice not having to be smoked on when you go to a restaurant, should you not wish to be, thanks to the very same act?
* Is it true that some people in the Labour Party are lesbians? Yes. Isn’t it also true that if it wasn’t for these people, homosexual acts might still be a criminal offence?
* Is it true that the Human Rights Commission forbade the playing of a married couples’ golf tournament on the grounds that it excluded the single competitor? Yes. Isn’t it also true that such silliness merely highlights anomalies in the Human Rights Act, rather than offering incontestable proof that the act isn’t working?
* Is it true that teachers went out on strike again this year, disrupting hundreds of classes while demanding better wages? Yes. Isn’t it also true that they’re some of the poorest-paid teachers in the Western world?
* Is it true that the Wellington-based Office of Film and Literature Classification finds K Road’s sex-industry signs objectionable? Yes. Could it also be that these self-appointed censors give the words “progressive” and “liberal” a bad name?
* Is it true that the Advertising Standards Complaints Board upheld a complaint alleging that an advertisement featuring a scantily clad male being ogled by two women was sexist? Yes. But given that it was such a boof-headed piece of lowest-common-denominator advertising in the first place (“we can treat men’s bodies like meat too, y’know – not just women’s!”),

who really cares?

The scare stories are the exceptions, not the rule. The rule, one suspects, is probably too mundane to warrant coverage. It probably involves doing dreadfully uninteresting things like righting wrongs and addressing inequalities. That’s why the exceptions are pounced on by the doom-sayers, feeding on the scraps like stray cats at a banquet, as proof that we’re mutating into a nation of victims, moaners and do-gooders. But why think the world is as simple as it appears to them?

Let’s look at some of those accepted anti-PC truisms. What does “the politics of envy” mean, for example, other than that some people don’t like being poor? Are the one-in-six New Zealanders below the poverty line suffering from the politics of envy, and if not, what on earth is their problem? The answer is this – unless you want tobe accused of being PC, and be honest, you’d rather not – is that many poor aren’t suffering from bad luck but are devoid of initiative and under the delusion that they’re owed a living. (This, as we have come to witness over the past few years, is certainly a forlorn hope.)

Of course, if you don’t want people feeling that you owe them a living, maybe you shouldn’t rather cynically offer them one and then pretend that breaking your promises is somehow more righteous than keeping them. If, in 1990, the soon-to-be government has been courageous enough to admit its plans to cut social spending, then voters could only be said to have got what they asked for. But this is where a particular brand of political correctness came into play. When you’re trying to win widespread support, you don’t want to offend anyone, so you promise to halve unemployment. Once you’ve made such a promise and been elected, in part on the back of it, do you not have an obligation to deliver or repent?

Not if you’ve got the Business Roundtable financing visits from British “experts” (one a journalist, one a former politician) who are considered qualified enough to tell us how to run our country. (Gentlemen, look at the problems in your own backyard!) Come on in Spectator columnist Paul Johnson, a man once described as looking like an explosion in a pubic hair factory. Roll up Dr David G Green, who identified that disadvantaged New Zealanders were not victims of the economic reform, but of a more ambiguous disease he called “victimism”.

For fairly mathematically sound reasons, one would have though, there’s not much reason to agree with Green’s assertion in his book From Welfare State To Civil Society that no fewer that “374 per cent” of Americans “suffer from victimism”. Surely some mistake? Victimism, as he explains it, is essentially a variation on another of those hoary old anti-PC clichés, “the grievance industry” – our third biggest industry, according to Rosemary McLeod anyway, behind welfare and dope. The trouble with the PC brigade, remember, is that they’re always moaning about everything.

In such thinking lies the seeds of neoconservatism, an intellectual movement which grew, the Economist recently noted, from a conviction that “liberal” (a term now possibly as devoid of meaning as political correctness) had become a euphemism, in the United States anyway, for “left” or “social democrat”. The instinct of such liberals was to call on the state to solve any obstacle to a better society. “You identified a problem. You called on the government to finance the programme: and the desired outcome would result.” Having watched liberalism being taken over by such reasoning, neoconservatism arrived. To the neoconservative , “there probably wasn’t a problem. If there was, social scientists probably misunderstood it. It was probably insoluble, and in any case efforts on the part of government to solve it would probably make it worse.”

Once, then, a societal problem was considered a sign that somebody needed to do something to change things for the better. Now, it’s considered a sign that some people don’t know when they’ve got it good. The trend is no longer to see how a problem can be fixed, but to see what shortcomings exist in a person which have caused them to suffer from the problem anyway. Such scepticism often turns out to be justified. Just as often, however, it’s simply easier than addressing the issue in question.

Accordingly, Dame Silvia Cartwright’s recent comment that some politicians were refusing to acknowledge the existence of poverty in New Zealand was greeted with outrage. How dare anyone at that end of the spectrum bring up such a sensitive subject! And what word should the minister of justice use to describe Dame Sylvia’s observations, but “inappropriate”. Inappropriate! My, what goes around really does come around.

Officially, you see, poverty does not exist. And so, on the campaign trail, Jim Bolger portrayed himself as the only major party leader embracing the optimistic spirit of the age. So often did he pronounce his optimism on TV3’s first leaders’ debate, for example, you’d have thought there was Prozac in his mineral water. But there was irony in the establishment’s election behaviour: even as they accused anti-establishment factions of moaning about everything, they traded in “the politics of fear”. The Alliance – what have we got to fear? The economy – what have we got to lose? Funny how breezy optimism goes out the window when the status quo’s under threat.

Remember, this is an environment where TVNZ gets so nervous about offending somebody that it doesn’t okay a proposed documentary on the Employment Contracts Act. Why? Because, at some point in a programme which would surely have dealt with both the benefits and the drawbacks of the act, it might mention the fact – the fact, not the opinion – that productivity has actually decreased since its introduction? That wages haven’t kept up with inflation? To say as much isn’t to take sides, merely to debate the issues. Similarly, the most talked-about documentary of the year, Someone Else’s Country, a documentary on the Rogernomics years, wasn’t screened on the channel that bround you Success. The only broadcaster with any bravado was an Auckland-only music video channel, whose viewers probably thought it was a promo for the next Rage Against The Machine album.

Because the truth is that even as we moan about the fact that future generations will be prissy, subliterate ones because of all this hand-wringing PC interventionism, it may in fact be the cult of selfism, if anything, which confers such characteristics upon them. They’ll be liberal because of the work of activists since the 60s to bring minorities up to a standard equal with the rest of us, before this whole PC thing got out of hand on both sides of the political divide. If they prove to be self-centred and subliterate, maybe it will be because they grew up in an era when it was considered good government to interfere in trivialities like who should compete in social golf matches while bailing out of responsibilities in areas such as health and education.

The ultimate irony, you see, is that the election campaign revealed our prime PC practitioner to be Jim Bolger, a man determined to be all things to all people, rewriting history to tailor himself to the prevailing political mood of the day. Who else, but a man who whispers sweet, cynical nothings like “The Decent Society” into the ear of the easily-aroused voter, could have the gall to loiter around Nelson Mandela’s old cell as if he had done anything other than help keep him in there for a few more years? The Christians may have wanted to take us back a century, but at least they were saying something (although the candidate who called New Zealand a “vast fornicatorium” may have made us sound far more interesting than were really are). Let’s rid ourselves of “political correctness” by all means, but accept that the purge will have to be wider than we might have hoped.

And what does PC mean by strict definition anyway? According to the dictionary I poked my thumbs into, “political correctness” is, in fact:

“conforming to a body of liberal or radical opinion, esp on social matter, in the avoidance of anything, even established vocabulary, that may conceivably be construed as discriminatory, or pejorative; advocacy of this”.

Now, quite apart from the fact that “may conceivably be construed” sounds like a prime piece of doublespeak in itself, this requires us to define two other words. Liberal: “generous; noble-minded; broad-minded; not bound by authority or traditional orthodoxy”.

And radical: “favouring thoroughgoing but constitutional social and political reform”.

So political correctness, it would seem, is being bound to an authoritarian doctrine but not being bound by authority. It requires a narrow-minded conformity to broad-mindedness. All this time, in other words, PC may have never actually meant anything much at all.

Then again … a conformity to broad-mindedness. Couldn’t extremists on either side of the PC divide learn something from that sentiment?

This essay was originally published in Metro magazine, November, 1996. It is copyright to Metro magazine and is published here with the kind permission of Metro’s editor, Nicola Legat. Thank you also to Andrew Heal himself -- we lost him too soon.

Chicken Coops and Rotten Eggs

by Tibby June 16

I don't know what it is about these Ockers and their fascination with locking people up. I mean, people go nuts with cries of 'witch-hunt' when they put Hanson behind bars for electoral fraud, but the taxpayers keep one bloke on an island at $26k a day and he probably deserved it. For 10 months Aladdin Sisalem was detained on Manus Island in what can only be called solitary confinement. 10 months! And all this as part of Howard's 'pacific solution' to the pesky problem of Palestinian, Iraqi and Afghani refugees trying to make it to a better life Australia.

But hey, a litany of lies in the children overboard scandal got Howard back into the driving seat (probably sitting on two phone books), and the ends justify the means right? We haven't had reports of any boats for months now. But spending $216k a month to keep one bloke from 'queue-jumping', thereby infiltrating and presumably debasing Australian society is a bit steep. They could have re-edumacated him into an Aussie with a good brainwashing technique involving say, big snappy dogs, or electrotherapy, for at least half that price.

But seriously, one of things people seem to think is that refugees are likely to go on the old rock and roll and cost the taxpayer a fortune. What the? Dole for a bloke Aladdin's age is maybe $1100 a month? Even locking him in detention centre on the mainland would cost the princely sum of $4800 a month. And that's more than the average wage in Victoria.

I saw a skit show that offered to lock a few of them up in a disused chicken coop at the back of their flat for the price of a housemaid and some good kebabs. Even worse, god forbid that Aladdin might actually get a job and contribute to the economy! Someone's got to drive the taxis over here. Buggered if I will.

The reason I whinge about this is the over-reaction to Merlin's "free the refugees" statement on the latest tired version of 'Big Brother'. While I'm on the subject, will this shyte never end? Note to self, if you ever find yourself watching and enjoying crap, buy some good webcams and take up real voyeurism.

My (real-life) housemate had a rant the other day about her workmate, who had seen Merlin and stated indignantly that 'children shouldn't have to watch that sort of thing'. Yeah, those political statements are pretty dangerous when the kids have got a transsexual to discuss.

The person involved was apparently more than a little stunned to find out that there are numerous, and I mean numerous, children locked up in these very camps (posing as they do, 'a threat to Australia's immigration policies').

And speaking of big snappy dogs, Amanda Vanstone, Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, stated in an obvious case of towing the party line, "he's obviously not very well informed. There are no refugees in Australian detention centres". Apparently people in detention centres are actually called 'asylum seekers'. So silly Merlin, no refugees, plenty of naughty asylum seekers though.

Mind you this is the same Minister who stated in an informal TV interview, at the remembrance ceremony for a prominent Aboriginal pioneer of the Reconciliation Movement, that he was a good bloke who knew Aussies should 'get on with it', and not dwell on the past.

But lets do just that for a moment.

It is estimated that at least 50,000 Aboriginal children were forcibly removed from their families and sent to Mission stations or adopted out to white families for the sole purpose of undermining and destroying their cultural attachments. The desired outcome was to turn them into Australians in the same mould as your typical 2.5 kid suburban family. This involved being prevented from any kin contact, being made to speak English and training in menial, but 'useful' occupations. Collectively these people are called the 'Stolen Generations', and were the subject of a denied apology by Howard around the time he was also stifling the Republican movement in 2000.

What a lot of people don't know is that this forcible removal was really kicked off here in Victoria in the 1860s, around the time Grey was invading the Waikato. Remnant Aboriginal populations were rounded up and forced onto Missions after the majority had been killed by disease, starvation, poisonings, frontier conflicts with settlers and punitive excursions by Police garrisons.

By 1880 almost every Aboriginal person left in Victoria had been rounded up and confined to a Mission, and by 1910 any 'resident' had every aspect of their lives controlled by Missionaries or government-appointed 'managers' or 'matrons'. And I mean every aspect, from what they could wear, to when they slept, eat, washed, worked, to who they could marry, to when, why and how they left the Mission. This was called 'civilising'. The last of these things was only closed in Victoria in 1970.

And, I feel I should state that this isn't 'historical revisionism', a label applied by neo-conservatives here to undermine what they call the 'political correctness' and 'guilt industry'. This detention system is well documented and all too real.

I was speaking to a bloke the other day who born in a shanty town they called a 'humpy camp' on the banks of a river in the north of Victoria. His family had been forced off the Missions when the definition of "Aboriginal" was changed by statute. It seems that feeding residents was too expensive, so anyone with one non-Aboriginal parent was reclassified as "white" and shunted off the Mission to fend for themselves.

Unable to get work from white farmers or townies, many starved or eked out lives on the edges of towns or in local rubbish tips. This was still happening 1956. But of course, this is dwelling on the past, which we don't have to apologise for.

One the things I've always loved about neo-conservatives is the way they're happy to conveniently overlook the impact this type of government policy has had on current generations, while simultaneously blaming the victim for being unable to participate in contemporary society.

When airing my criticisms I even had someone ask me 'why I hate my own people so much', implying that I'm favouring outsiders. I love my people, but hate it when they do stupid, hypocritical things like impose their standards and value systems on others and then bitch that minorities 'can't cut it in the real world'. The value of diversity is being able to present a different viewpoint to anyone, anytime and thereby make them think.

The deceased Aboriginal man in question above (as far as I know, traditionally a name is withheld till the family states they are finished grieving by speaking it themselves), worked for almost 10 years within the system to make Reconciliation mean something, only to die at the ripe old age of 54 and then have himself labelled 'a good boy' by the Federal Minister for 'minorities'.

And meanwhile, people whinge and spew vitriol when a TV contestant doesn't tow the line and diversifies the agenda, much like Judith Collins MP denying our Russell the ability to speak against her viewpoint.

A word to Judith. Love, being 'opposed' to a view contrary to your own is what 'opposition' means. It's one of those pesky democratic ideals in the same vein as 'consensus'. If you want to do a little rant and then have people to agree with you all the time, become a taxi driver. But, just in case, get used to the word, you'll be hearing it attached to your name, just before the suffix 'MP' for a while yet.

Perhaps the only thing that would bring me back to New Zealand in the future is the willingness of some policy-makers to recognise that they don't live in a homogeneous society. National's Treaty policy of the 1990s was something that all New Zealanders could truly be proud of, and that ability to say "Oops. Screwed up, I'm truly sorry. Let's both make sure this will never happen again" is something that these conservative culture warriors need to absorb.

Political Correction Fluid

by Che Tibby

OK. So I've realised that I owe the publicaddress community a wee apology. I reread the two comments accepted for posting and it dawned on me that I was foisting a couple of moral vignettes on you. If you managed to sit through my moralising and condescension then more power to you.

But, having absolved myself, let me carry on about the latest bee in the bonnet.

I'm thinking seriously about entering that Maxim Institute essay competition. Trouble is, I'm not a current New Zealand student so am automatically excluded (if anyone out there wants to sponsor me we can split any winnings 75-25). I figure that the best way to win these kinds of things is usually to do some research, so between reading about the marginalisation of Aboriginal people and the comparisons to New Zealand in the 1950s I tried to squeeze in the last winner's essay.

The great thing about doing research is that if you're at all serious about it you're going to have to read opinions and findings contrary to your own. Now while I agree with the premises of the essay, that families are an important unit of any healthy society, I couldn't help but notice a theme that also rears its ugly head here in the land of flies.

Something that pervades the Maxim website is a tendency to rail against that new foe of conservatives, "political correctness". Once again, apologies to the publicaddress community, I don't know why I have such an opposition to conservatives.

Ok, maybe I do. They're dicks. No, really, have a big conversation with any really committed conservative and you'll soon come to the opinion that these people really are, 100% dyed in the wool, dicks.

I'm feeling the need to justify this outburst, just to be sure I haven't offended anyone. So here's a test. John Howard, staunch conservative. Dick. George W. Bush, staunch conservative. Dick. Jenny Shipley? Dick.

What you can glean from this is that if you find yourself identifying with these characters, bad news. You might be a dick.

But! Never fear, things aren't all bad, this problem isn't confined to the ranks of conservatives! I myself am a left-leaning liberal, and have, on many occasions been referred to as a dick. This means then that because I belong to this elite group I can in fact refer to other dicks as being dicks and not have to worry about accusations of bias. After all, I'm an insider. Convenient that.

Mind you, the annoying thing about some of my fellow liberals is that they're pretentious dicks. At least you can guarantee which way a conservative will jump on any issue. Liberals tend to be all things to all men.

Even more annoying, it was just this kind of liberal who invented political correctness. In a nutshell, some people noticed that the kind of language used in everyday settings has a tendency to discriminate. As an aside, if you're the kind of person who's happy to use words like 'coon', 'wog', 'faggot', or a favourite from my time living in Texas 'sand-nigger' (i.e. an Arab), then you'll never really know what I mean.

The result was that as far back as the 1960s in places like the USA you have black people calling themselves 'African-Americans', or in 1970s Australia you have Aboriginal people calling themselves 'Koori', because they are comfortable with these labels.

Along with other sorts of liberalisation like freeing women up from the only jobs they were allowed to do, housework and childcare, this social movement really took off among the ranks of many political groups in the mid-Twentieth Century, around the time the baby-boomers were opting out of having to listen to what they were told they had to do by their 'uncool' and 'heavy' parents.

What we might notice at this point is that the baby-boomers who weren't having fun, taking drugs, getting laid and being involved in social liberalisation were, once again, the dicks.

It's been my opinion for a while though that this liberalisation hit its peak and has started to run out of steam. The trouble is, politics being politics, there was always going to be a backlash, and the neo-conservative revolution we're hearing so much about these days is it.

One of the mistakes the boomers made was to try too hard to force liberal changes into their societies, and it's this that the neo-cons exploit.

What's obvious here in Australia is that the man in the street never really understood why they should have to put up with all the liberal demands made of them, like not calling Aboriginal people 'coons' or 'boongs', and not being allowed to slap round the missus or any itinerant fairies.

Now, I know I said the other week that Aussies are pretty tolerant, but that doesn't mean that people can't speak their minds about their dislikes. The key thing is though that legislation like the Racial Discrimination Act means you can call a spade a spade, but you can't not hire someone because they're not white.

This wasn't good enough for some liberals though, and they tried to suppress even the use of negative or discriminatory language or arguments, eventually giving ammunition to our conservative friends.

People in democracies like to think they can say whatever the hell they want, when they want, to who they want. And that's fair enough. So, if they want to call Arabs sand-niggers they expect to be able to. Now, any liberal can't argue against this type of thing because freedom of expression is vital to a healthy democracy. Any attempt to hush this kind of speak is met with cries of 'political correctness' suppressing public opinions.

This is a real problem for political thinkers because you want to let people be people, but such opinions can be seen as dangerous or inflammatory. But all bans do is push prejudice into private opinions were they sit and fester.

The inability of middle New Zealand to talk about 'race relations' till someone like Brash speaks up is a good example of this stuff boiling to the surface.

The answer to this kind of problem is, in my most humble of opinions, to really let these dicks shoot off all their ammunition. The key though is to let people know that just because they think and say something, it doesn't mean anyone has to listen.
One great indicator is the phrase "I know this isn't very politically correct to say this, but...". In plain English what this means is "I am a dick. Please ignore me."

Remember, political correctness is usually about not saying things or behaving in ways that are offensive, stupid, or just plain uncool. Pretentious liberals will often take this too far and try to be so right-on, 'sensitive' or hip they cross that fine line and also become dicks, but that's another issue.

So what's my moral vignette this time? Say whatever the hell you want. Political opinion, expression and conversation is absolutely vital to prevent people from feeling left out and turning to neo-cons for protection from the things they don't understand. But don't expect the subject of your rants to have to listen. Democracy is also about not having to tout a majority line.

Civil discourse

What with the Civil Unions Bill finally set to get a first reading in Parliament this month, I though it would be a good time to publish a partial transcript of a public meeting on civil unions held a little while ago at the Milford Baptist Church on Auckland's North Shore and subsequently transcribed by some enterprising young chaps.

Points of interest: a furiously equivocating National MP Wayne Mapp explaining why Helen Clark is out of touch with the electorate because she supports the Civil Unions Bill, but Don Brash isn't; Mapp admitting that many MPs who voted against homosexual law reform, including Lockwood Smith, now regret doing so; United Future MP Paul Adams claiming, on the other hand, that "having spoken to many [MPs] that now said that if we knew where that pathway was going to go to, we would never have voted in favour " of homosexual law reform; Adams declaring that gay people aren't discriminated against because they still have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex; and the Maxim Institute's Amanda McGrail declaring that "marriage itself is not a human right. It's an institution and it's not about whether you love somebody or not ..."

This transcript derives from a public meeting on Sunday May 30th, 7pm, at Milford Baptist Church, Milford, North Shore City. Technical problems mean it is only a partial record of proceedings: it begins mid-way through a question and answer session. The first question here related to the amount of money Civil Unions would save in benefit payments once same-sex couples claiming two separate incomes become recognised in formal relationships.

Amanda McGrail - Maxim Institute: It would be interesting to look at the statistics, but I would be very surprised if there is a significant proportion of homosexual relationships on the benefit. Well at least in the United States, when you look at the living standards and all the main criteria for living standards as a relationship type ... inaudible ...

Interjection: It has been quoted to save $50 million.

McGrail: Well, I think if the government was genuinely concerned about saving money there are other ways they could do it. But that is still a valid point.

Wayne Mapp - National MP for North Shore: Inaudible.

Chairman: Okay, another question - there are too many incentives to leave marriage, what can be done to get couples to stay together longer?

Paul Adams - United Future List MP: Well I think that's exactly right. I think that a lot of our legislation, and a lot of the way we handle situations at the moment... We are very good at putting an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff and we are very poor at putting the ambulance at the top of the cliff. And that's why I think that if the government did pick up the responsibility ... or, not the responsibility ... If the government could see the importance and the reward, to sustain marriage relationships and channel funding in there so that people could have counselling and all of those things, to keep them together, that would be very good.

At the moment it works exactly the opposite. We in our business, we've got a mechanical workshop, and there was a couple who had been working on their cars, for many years they struggled with two or three kids I forget how many and we always tried to help them out as they paid the bill and one day this young lady came in and she had a list with a hundred or a thousand dollars of work that had to be done on the car and we said, well hang on, how are you paying for it?

And she said, well I think Winz is paying for it, because she had left her husband and now they would pick up all the mechanical bills. They had explained to her that now she would have no more financial problems now that she had left her husband and if she chose to have even more children they would help her out even further. And I thought, well, wake up! Where is the help to get them to reconcile what is going to be the long-term effect on those children? And so therefore I think that we need to make sure that we start putting things in place. But first of all we must recognise that marriage is important, and marriage is worth fighting for, and I believe that it is. But that requires a mindset change in the government.

Mapp: Well, just very briefly, I think in fact Paul's explained it very well. We certainly do have too many financial incentives that make splitting up a much less painful process than it, than it should be. I am not suggesting that we would change [inaudible] grounds for separating, I don't think that anybody would advocate that. But certainly you don't want, as Paul has very well explained, you don't want incentives built into the benefit system that make it easier.

Two things that National would do: One, we do want to increase the liable parent contribution so that a significant financial disincentive if you will, from that point of view, that parents don't escape from obligations by separating. Secondly, one of the reasons why Dr Brash was fairly clear that, in the Budget debate, that he didn't oppose all parts of the budget ... we do recognise that lower and middle income families do need a tax break and indeed a tax credit. And so realistically, we would be unlikely to repeal much of this current legislation. We opposed the Budget because it was anti growth. It didn't do things on that side of the equation. There are [inaudible] we as a society have got to make it a little easier through the tax system for couples who are together raising children - and conversely there needs to be a level of financial disincentives in relation to people separating.

Adams: Can I just add there? Because I think what Wayne says is very important. United Future of course supported the Budget because we have got a confidence and supply agreement but I agree with what Wayne is saying. There is a fundamental ideology in Labour that is about wealth transfer. So therefore the system [inaudible] will be complicated. Families will have to apply for assistance. But to me, I don't want a generation to arise that has not got the ability to dream. That has not got the ability to progress forward. Now when, as Wayne has correctly said, you put in a tax system that's very easy to do because if you can have one dependant, two dependants, three dependants and then the government recognises that by giving you a greater return back on your tax, well that to me, when we do that helps to build families and inspire them to work and to get ahead and so its just a basic twist and I think we just need to [inaudible] in our country to actually get it going ahead because it's a great nation.

Chairman: This is a question for Dr Mapp, and it isn't ... its not my question because I have already asked him this question. If Helen Clark is out of touch with the electorate, is it correct that, as Dr Brash has indicated he will vote for the Civil Unions Bill also, is he out of touch with the electorate?

Mapp: Good question ... that's a fair question. This is a conscience vote for the National MPs and I have indicated that in my speech. I am sure a number of National MPs will vote for this legislation because they are usually a fairly predictable group of people.

What's the difference between Dr Brash voting for it, and Helen Clark voting for it? They come at it really from different perspectives. Helen Clark's statements, which we have heard tonight, is that she doesn't want to see any difference, that there should be no practical difference between marriage and other relationships. That's a fundamentally different way of looking at it from when you say you want relationships between same sex couples to have some level of recognition.

Dr Brash's vote is really on the basis that he wants a mechanism for there to be some legal recognition for same sex relationships. But I believe based on the discussion that I had with him that he also believes that National needs to be supportive of marriage and families and our mechanism will be primarily through the tax system. We see that as a very necessary thing for society because traditional ... marriage is as much as anything is about the raising of children, there are other values in it, and I know that not every couple has children. But the institution itself is primarily there actually to provide the nurturing climate to to raise children in and we will always want be able to reinforce the value of marriage in that regard.

Adams: Can I just add something to that without the risk of me sounding like a politician? I think we need to [think beyond?] first past the post mentality in New Zealand. We have really come to thinking how we are going to have National or we are going to have Labour. Because they are our two major parties. Now in all my years, and I am 57 years of age, I think that there is not a lot of difference basically between the National and the Labour on 85% of the issues. So when you are voting, whether you are voting for an electorate MP or a list MP, I know that my trees at home have got oranges on them because I see the orange. You will never convince me that my orange tree is an apple tree because I can see the fruit on it.

So when you are voting for your MP, whoever you choose to vote for, you need to critique them. What is the fruit of their life? Because that is really the critical thinking. And that fundamental thinking will reflect as they come into the House of Representatives ... and I think most New Zealanders have been party orientated rather than politician orientated and you get a group of MPs in that house you will not pass any legislation in this country unless you have got 61 people agreed with what you are saying. So if some of these issues are important to you, when you look at who you are going to vote for in the next election, and you will have two votes, you critique those people and say "do I like the fruit of the life that they have led to date?" and if the answer is yes, you happily vote for them.

Chairman: This is a sort of a belated question in a sense: When the homosexual Law Reform Legislation was passed, despite New Zealand's largest petition, the politicians um... learned that they could ignore the electorate with impunity. What ensures that they will listen now?

Adams: Well I think this is a good question. Because see the issue they were dealing with there when you go back to it really was: should the act of homosexuality be legal? In other words they were saying if a man has sex with a man, should we put him into prison for that? And the thinking was, well if the answer to that is yes, well what shall we do with adultery? Because if we are going to put a man in prison for having sex with a man, why don't we make a man or a woman's prison for having sex with somebody outside of marriage? And that was the grounds that they convinced people and people and the politicians I believe at that time, having spoken to many of them that now said that if we knew where that pathway was going to go to, we would never have voted in favour of it. And so many who voted in favour of it were actually voting for it on the pretence that no, it is wrong for a man to be sent to prison for that act but of course that was the [inaudible] that opened the door that is leading us to where we still are today.

Mapp: Well I think this whole issue of conscience votes actually raises the role of referenda and I think, on a whole range, not every issue is able to be distilled into a yes or no question, but many of them are. Or are very clear choices in terms of say, age 18 or 20, and Paul and I, ahh, think alike on this very issue of the alcohol issue. I think I I... I would personally be happy for those issues to be dealt with directly by referenda. Now my recollection is, and I may well be wrong on this because we are going back nearly 20 years, although there was the 800 person petition...

Interjection: 800,000.

Mapp: 800,000 sorry, yes. Ahh, the polls never the less were actually favouring a change. It was a fairly close, ah, fight and ah, I would personally tend to put more weight on polls ah than, than petitions because they are frankly a truer measure. I think the ultimate poll is actually a referendum. I really have to contest your view somewhat Paul, the the number of MPs I know who actually voted against it in 1986, regretted that decision subsequently and felt that they should have actually voted for it and I know that was a decisive factor for one particular person ahm Dr Lockwood Smith, his vote on the prostitution legislation earlier this year. I say that here because he said it publicly that he voted against in 1986 and he felt and he always felt that he should have for, essentially on the basis that he didn't feel that it was a matter that should be subject to criminal law and um, he regretted his vote, and it influenced, interestingly enough, his vote on prostitution.

Chairman: I think in a sense Dr Mapp you have answered this question: Is there any real value in a conscience vote? The impression I get is that there would seem to be a lot of lobbying to stick to party lines. Is it possible to have a true conscience vote or should we have binding citizens referenda?

Mapp: National doesn't have a party line on this issue. It is a conscience vote, and should it come up, there will be a pretty predictable split in our caucus which is typically 2/3 - 1/3 or occasionally ... ah Labour on these issues also has a split except it comes from the opposite side, so for instance in National it would be 2/3 or 3/4 conservative, ah, traditional values and Labour tends to be 2/3 for change. There is, they are genuine conscience votes, its just that the attitudes of the two parties I guess reflect, well, the people in the two parties I should say, reflect where those two parties, sort of come from in terms of their fundamental values.

Adams: Can I just add that too because, just take the Civil Unions Bill... If it's allowed to be a conscience vote for all the house, I believe that the bill would be possibly be defeated. But if the Labour party makes it a government Bill, and therefore all of their members must vote for it, otherwise they will be in a case of crossing the floor, I believe the legislation would pass.

So that brings it to the point where many people ask well should there be [inaudible] exercise a conscience vote. Now that is a very good question. Because you compare it to citizens initiated referenda, which once again we are still weighing up how we feel on that, and United Future does have a referendum on the Prostitution Law Reform out at the moment. The problem people have with our referenda at the moment is that they are not binding referenda. [inaudible] binding referenda because I don't know, well I do know, our media in this country can be very biased.

Now the MPs when we sit down in that house, and I realise we are actually on the bottom of the list of the latest Readers Digest poll, we haven't lifted off the bottom yet as being the most trusted people in the country. But we do compare all of the evidence from both sides of the scale. And so if we decide that a conscience vote, that is probably not a bad way, it's not perfect, but it's not a bad way. Say for example you had a citizen's initiated referenda on the homosexual law reform, what is the question they are going to put to you? Because there is [Inaudible] that they can. So if they ask you the question: "Is it right or wrong to send a man to prison for a homosexual relationship?" How would you answer that compared to: "Is it right or wrong to recognise homosexuals?" You see it's what the question is and how it's portrayed through the media. So I ask myself the question: "Who [would I?] rather have making the decisions in the country, the politicians that get incredible briefing from many aspects or the public being controlled by the press?

McGrail: Just a small point, that just to reiterate that the Civil Union Bill is a conscience vote, but the omnibus bill is a government bill. [Inaudible exchange with interjector] So it's really interesting, there is two bills going through together and they are two sides to one coin. If we get Civil Unions without the omnibus then the Civil Unions will have absolutely no teeth and will not actually confer any of those rights, but if you don't have the Civil Unions and only the Omnibus, then you don't get the legal recognition but you do get the rights. So it's very strategic, so there is two one it a government one is a conscience vote.

Mapp: I think on the big conscience issues, and I ... main things like... and they are not all big... but on the big things like prostitution [inaudible exchange with interjector] age of drinking, Civil Unions, homosexuality I guess in years gone by ... I think the public, based on their own life experience in fact have a reasonably informed view. I know the media deals with things the way they deal with them, but I have to say these days the Herald provides a really superb analysis of ahh issues on both sides in a very fair way. Take the drinking age, we all know from our own life experience what the right age should be or shouldn't be. And ah, frankly... I think frankly I would be quite happy to trust the public in a binding referendum on the drinking age.

Chairman: If a child or grandchild of yours was gay or lesbian, would you be comfortable with them being treated as second class citizens by the law for the way they live their lives that has no effect on anyone else what so ever?

Adams: ...well I think that's probably a um... an unfairly worded question, I know the bias they are trying to put on it. If my grandchild was gay I would love them exactly as they are. Because what they choose to do does not affect my love for them. And so, but that does not stop me portraying to them what I believe is the correct pathway to walk down. See, all of my children are taught what I believe is right, and as a father I have found that on many occasions I can be wrong, but as I have said there is [only two kinds of?] decisions, right ones and wrong ones. Someone has to make them. Now, if I make a wrong decision, I will apologise for it. So I will not treat them as second class citizens. I would love them exactly as they are, and I would not discriminate between any of my other children on that relationship because that is what fathering is all about. You [don't?] love your children just because they are doing what you want them to do. The love I have for my children is unconditional love.

Chairman: The issue is the law, not just...

Adams: Well on the law, I don't believe that they are treated like second class citizens. But if your inferring to me that because I will not allow them to marry, well that's not treating them as second class citizens, that esteeming marriage for what it is. It's between a man and a woman. If they need certain things in their relationship, I have always said I would support the family. But in no way would I support them getting married.

McGrail: Yeah, I think marriage itself is not a human right. It's an institution and it's not about whether you love somebody or not, just because something is not exactly the same, does not automatically mean that... that...

Adams: Marriage is between a man and a woman, because that's what it is.

Mapp: I felt I'd dealt with the [inaudible] I felt I'd dealt with the key issues of discrimination when I voted to [inaudible] related things to wills to apply to same sex relationships and the arguments that I have heard since, and most recently put to me by Chris Carter seem to me to be underwhelming. So I feel, I feel the key discriminatory issues in legislation have actually been ... and ah, I frankly don't see a need for this legislation, and I guess I want to conclude on this point in saying: Marriage is an institution that ought to have a special status in law and I think it is right that it does so.

Chairman: Two more questions. Considering human rights, what right does a baby have and is that considered?

McGrail: I think the whole human rights thing is very interesting, we don't seem to have any agreed foundation of why we have them or where they come from. But I think if children have any rights at all, it's the right to a mother and a father. To intentionally bring children into the world knowing that they won't have a mother and a father is [to take away?] the most basic right...

Mapp: I must say I, ahh, again I will use Chris Carter because he has said all this publicly, I am not saying anything about him that's not on the public record. I personally found it disturbing the way he has arranged to become a father, with a lesbian couple and other people might find that perfectly ok. I didn't. Why did I find it disturbing? It just seemed to me to be fundamentally against the natural order of things, I know that's an old fashioned terminology, but that was an instinctive reaction I had to what he said. And and for that reason, I guess that's another reason why I am opposed to the Civil Union Bill it's a quite instinctive reaction, it just seems to be against our society.

Adams: Could you just imagine that, I mean to me, when we yelled out all of our flavours of ice-cream, no one could hear anyone, can you imagine that household, with those children growing up and dad sleeps with a man and mum sleeps with a woman, and they are all in the same household...

Interjection: They have two fathers and two mothers... how lucky is that?

Adams: yeah well you see... you have also got to understand, that there is not one homosexual man or lesbian woman in this country that is discriminated against and can't get married. They can. They have just got to choose a partner of the opposite sex. Because that is what marriage is.

Chairman: The last question is: What happens if ahhhh, [a couple enters a civil union?] with the Civil Unions Bill, and later want to marry?

Confusion...

Audience Member (McGrail's Husband): Well they are recognised under...

Interjection: There is a transfer clause. There is a transfer clause between Civil Unions Bill and marriage. If you're married and you want to be in a Civil Union instead you can transfer out into the next one and you can do it vice versa. So I've been told.

McGrail: Does the Marriage Act have to be changed?

Interjector: I don't know - I have just been told you can transfer from a marriage to a Civil Union or from a Civil Union to a marriage.

Mapp: It's an interesting question. I assume the whole reason why the government is having Civil Union legislation and not Civil Union in the Marriage Act, which is obviously another option, is that the transfer you describe in fact wouldn't be possible so that a same sex couple on ...

Interjector: No it's just for heterosexuals. Same sex couples can only have a Civil Union, but if heterosexuals are in a Civil Union and want to transfer up to a marriage, they can do so.

Mapp: I am sure you are right. Well it's now just been explained, and if you think about the logic of that, such legislation would presumably allow that. A heterosexual couple choosing a Civil Union could presumably change their minds and later on choose a marriage.

Interjection: Would you have to dissolve the Civil Union before you became married?

McGrail: Without a transfer clause then you would need to go through the process of... divorce.

Inaudible point made by audience member.

End of formal proceedings