Tze and the presenter were especially amazing, but no, they were all great.

yeah yeah, everyone was amazing, but Bernadine Lim was also HOT!

i've always found MI hard to handle but she really did come across well. i think she's mellowed a bit, although i acknowledge she has fair grounds for the things she was always…

yes most profound apologies if anyone thought elsewise.
'our' Deborah from WN can clearly write a good argument without the aid of imaginary statistics or trashy populist redneckery.

mine was instantaneous when i finally did it right. what i missed out was double clicking the gravy so it loads against your nominated email addr

this thread needs to stay alive at least till the Press Council make their pronouncement on Dearest Deborah.

That's not me! Not that I have exclusive rights to the name...

So, just to be clear, Mr Walker is referring to Codders in this point, not to me.

i bet he did hear you

the uncomfortable leaning was directly preceeded by my taking of the piss.

so.... maybe. he might have just had to let one go.

liking the way he's pulling up his commenters on calling clark ugly names though.

that said, might have to find the…

the gravy site is not as intuitive as it could be

I have applied for a gravy sign and it has been granted to my e-mail address. How long before it turns up? About 20 hours have gone by now.

if you've got a mug like a bulldog licking piss of a thistle, you'll be predisposed to extreme political views

i thought that article on a thread a while back said it was because they couldn't get it up…

must go to kiwiblog and flog some lefties

this actually belongs in another thread, but... a tory once explained the nutters at kiwiblog to me once, in no uncertain terms.

"che, if you've got a mug like a bulldog licking piss of a thistle, you'll be predisposed to extreme political…

but in this case any antelope pashing ends up with me me shouted at...

and i'm very tender... [sniffle]

this is a good start.

seriously.

good plan

our nation's newest national (no, global) heroines

yes that was good, even got airplay on BBC world, and gave TV3 the chance to quote the trite old favourite…

Top work, girls. Insert obligatory reference here to Kiwi Ingenuity.

Suck on that, Coddy!

my favourite moment of the weekend was telling a tory mate, "good thing we have immigrants. your lot would never have come up with that"

we were not amused.

*puts on Basil Fawlty hat*
Don't mention…

we were not amused.

Anyway, I've been pondering the whole Babel-label question again today.

Two young Asians appeared at the Auckland District Court. They were our nation's newest national (no,…

do you have the motivation for the umbrage at the word, 'pakeha'? was it the recent centenary of the signing?

my researcher alter-ego thinks there could be something interesting in this, but hasn't quite put it's finger…

surely the pedigree can't be that old

Well the documents I looked at were pretty clear on the dates and the context of the debate, such as it was. The only thing I couldn't discern was what exactly it was about 'Pakeha' that offended the person.

‘Letters From Maoris and Half Castes’, MS-582/b/10
Excerpted from Mamaru Te Au to J. Herries Beattie, dated 09-09-1946:

The word Pakeha was created…

We also murdered a Bob Marley song into lyrics which make me cringe a bit now.

So we are still left with needing a label for the white, English-speaking New Zealander ethnic group. Take your pick: New Zealand European/Pakeha/something else.

How about "white New Zealander" or "New Zealander who happens to be white" ?

The US has categories "Black" and "White".

On the songs you all…

Eye tiddly eye-tie, eat brown bread

I've proven to my own satisfaction that Google will be of limited help. You can do phrase searches for each line. There''s a noticabely different nonsense poem (that seems to be a transcribed from " I Saw Esau", rhymes collected Iona and Peter Opie…

Eye tiddly eye-tie, eat brown bread
I saw a sausage fall down dead
Up jumped a saveloy and bashed him on the head
Eye tiddly eye-tie,
BROWN BREAD!

It's…

If NZer does become an ethnicity I'd hope that it would be an inclusive one that is not just shorthand for white and english speaking. But it may not.

Sure, if it did it would be the same as 'Asian' being inclusive of Chinese/Japanese/Korean etc. In the same way that…

Lets all hold hands and sing we are the world.

And Kumbaya (spelling?) of course.

Dang,and lets not forget that state primary school hit of the 70s and 80s 'This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land'. Such sweet and subtle poetry in those lyrics.

O please sir…

If NZer does become an ethnicity I'd hope that it would be an inclusive one that is not just shorthand for white and english speaking.

That's what I hope, and the way it can become that is if we are a welcoming country, with diverse people, diverse interests and are…

So what am I saying? Be careful with how you approach this issue if you want to change the behaviour of the offending people. Labelling them as racist, even if carefully qualified, could easily be totally counter productive.

Point taken, I hadn't thought that through. Still, don't think it applies…

If my physical attributes/genetic makeup mark me as Caucasian, and I state that "New Zealander" is my ethnicity, it's pretty damn hard for someone with different physical attributes than me to argue they are also a New Zealander by ethnicity.

Says who? Can a black Dutch person in New Zealand…

Manakura, you may feel that Pakeha is the right word for the ethnicity of white NZers but I don't believe that you can make that decsion on behalf of others.

Fair enough, I wouldn't accept outsiders dictating the nature of my identity to me. Not sure if that was what…

This is a fair point.
I agree that many/most of the people who tick "New Zealander" are not racist…

It worries me that some Maori are lumping all non-Maori European NZ nationals into one group like that, when clearly there are vast differences between groups, especially in what they may mean to Maori in terms of mana motuhake and tino rangatiratanga.

But the main thing is, dude, __you…

Saying "I'm a New Zealander" when the subtext is "I am Caucasian" is racist (I'm not saying you are racist) because the implication is that other New Zealanders (non-white) are somehow less New Zealandish than us.

That about sums it up – its just not healthy to let a small…

Saying "I'm a New Zealander" when the subtext is "I am Caucasian" is racist (I'm not saying you are racist) because the implication is that…

Ethnicity is about genetic relatedness. Ethnic groups are large extended families. Caucasian is a more accurate description than…

and much prefer KRS-One to the Clean

Damn, I love KRS-One!!!

The list of things I wrote as things which are part of NZ culture was not a be all and end all list and of course you have people within races around the world who like…

Once Brits and French and Spaniards and Portuguese with guns met cultures still using stone-tipped spears they, of course, prevailed.

i think you mean, "usually" prevailed.

in parts of australia the main factor in europeans favour was the horse, not the gun. they could gallop into populated areas very…

Translation: They don't have the often brutal subjugation of indigenous peoples and the confiscation (or dubious purchase) of their ancestral lands in their recent history.

Nah, most of them have that in one shape or form – generally longer than 500 – 1000 years ago though – after that they…

Given the choices in the graph I can see why many people would be a bit stumped and go just for Other.

But I can't see what the problemn with opting for New Zealander is. It's…

They don't have the conquering of a wild hinterland in their recent history.

Translation: They don't have the often brutal subjugation of indigenous peoples and the confiscation (or dubious purchase) of their ancestral lands in their recent history.

Ok yes, the actual story of colonisation is way more nuanced than…

Them trying to transform that unfairly universalised nationalist identity into a national ethnicity is just...

I really don't think anyone would try and create a standard for New Zealand ethnicity based on how well one fits into the Barry Crump/Fred Dagg mould. Sure, there's a kind of national archetype built…

Beer: I never even tried it until I was in my mid-30s, and then only because I was in Brussels and it seemed like the thing…

But of course the mess doesn't stop…

If I were writing in "New Zealander" I would be assuming that the culture and heritage that I share with a lot of other people can sensibly be referred to by a name that makes it sound like it's the culture and heritage of…

Sonal – I think I know what you're getting at with the distinction between ethnic and national identity, but again, look at the Census…

Consider what Michael King says in the introduction to his Being Paheha Now. He first tells us that "Pakeka" is 'derived from the Maori word "pakepakeha" meaning fair-skinned folk.' then he immediately…

The word tauiwi is generally used to mean non-Maori, not Pakeha. Pakeha is more specific, especially in contemporary usage. Its broadest definition is 'white person' (in the online Ngata Dictionary). But I commonly hear…

So who decides what makes an ethnic New Zealander (as opposed to only having your nationality as New Zealander)?

I'm from an ethnicity that's thousands of years old so it's a bit easier for me but wouldn't there have to be an academic agreement on how the criteria…

I would also think that those writing Pakeha may prefer they be lumped into "New Zealander" ahead of "New Zealand European" if they do have to be put into another category.

Not me. I would go for 'NZ European' way, way, way ahead of 'New Zealander'.

I would also think that those writing Pakeha may prefer they be lumped into "New Zealander" ahead…

Using the two criteria for 'having' an ethnic group that have been mentioned (stats NZ first and M Brown second)…

Here's what Stats says ethnicity consists in:

An ethnic group is made up of people who have some or all of the following characteristics:
a common proper name
one…

Did pakeha get aggregated into New Zealander rather than New Zealand/European?

I don't know what happened to it.

I do know that even if I am mistaken about what I am claiming about myself, what I was trying to claim was that my ethnicity was formed here, and that it…

and finally debs. you've clearly demonstrated the problem with introducing rationality to identity politics. the externalities you indicate need to exist separate from the two participants, but also be shared by them. two people don't make an identity group, but a large number of persons sharing a 'imagined…

dc_red. dunno. it's like i'm stereotyping…

– six pakeha – plural sans "s", as in Maori

– he missed out the turtle doves

Let the deconstruction begin!

Well, for a start, the speech was yesterday.

all of them New Zealanders.

But we don't want any of them tick to that box in the census form though do we? :)

__A country where I can watch my 13 year old Eurasian son playing happily with a dozen of his friends, and count two Chinese, one Korean, one Sri Lankan, one Eurasian, six Pakeha, and the grandson of a Maori activist – all of them…

Thanks Raffe.

I am one of those 100% Anglo-Celts (with a hint of Prussian) that goes back 5-6 generations in this country. I have never considered myself as indigenous in any sense of the word. I ticked New Zealand European at the last census, but feel it…

On the face of it, I like that.... but here's the rub.

I was born in Australia, and have an Australian passport... but I've been here long enough, and from young enough, that I'm far…

i am in no way asserting that your preference for the term is wrong. rather, i wanted to point out that the kinds of people we're targeting for criticism are highly likely to be disparaging of any person they consider outside their racial preference group.

Like who exactly?…

And from it...

Pakeha is in common usage, but many have difficulty in defining its meaning. From early records it is clear that the term was used…

Problem with looking for external indicators is that they are too based on race. If somebody from England…

Just noticed the Maori version has 'Pakeha' as the first choice where 'New Zealand European' on the English version.

If people don't want to use New Zealand, New Zealand European or Pakeha then perhaps we can make up a new word to describe the…

Do you remember I said that I was writing a long screed on identity that I never actually got around to sending to you.

Said much the same thing.

Roughly, there's an internal account of identity, and an external account. If I claim to be x, but I…

if you say you are something, and people agree with you, then you are.

so, i can say, "i am a maori". but unless a bunch of people agree with me, then i am not. naturally the people agreeing have to also be maori.…

would you like to know my suggestion for determining your identity?

Have two questions. One on 'skin colour', where I will happily tick "Scottish to the bone", and one on what I most feel like. A Big Mac Combo.

I wonder though that if they chucked "New Zealander" as a category you could actually tick that…

the tick box says, "new zealand european", which is by any objective measure, a nationality (new zealander) and a racial category (european, although, caucasian might be smarter).

strangely though, the form also lists a whole bunch more nationalities. but,…

In 2001 there were 2,696,727 who ticked New Zealand European.

In 2006 there were 2,381,076 who ticked New Zealand European.

The difference is 315,651.

429,429 chose "New Zealander".

Obviously there has been some natural increase in the number of New Zealand Europeans which would account for a…

and as tze ming mentions, there is no box for 'new zealander'. people had to actually write it on the form.

Are you sure? Maybe I was incredibly drunk when I filled it out but I don't remember writing it. That's a lot of writing for 400,000+ people to do.…

and yamis. i agree with tze ming, persons who state they are new zealanders, and especially if they do so vehemently, are making a statement that they are the one 'true' identity group in this country.

the fact that they are most usually racially european…

Although it is not a Continent in the generally accepted meaning we are actually part of Oceania.
So..... next census I will consider calling myself an Oceanian.

You must swim like a fish.

Mark the space or spaces that apply to you

... and I believe this is the first census where all of your answers would have ended up in the record (so the percentages, as the graph says, do not add to 100).

I'm not sure if people are saying they feel no connection to their European ancestry, just that they feel more "New Zealand" than a vague term like "European".

I've got a screen capture of the form itself, and "European" per se does not appear on there at all. The actual…

But the Census does not ask you to fill in your citizenship in the ethnicity question. It's quite heartwarming to see all the Pakeha here on this thread describing and affirming their national identity, but national identity is not actually ethnicity, and Pakeha ethnicity is not…

I can't really think of any non-white race for whom a significant percentage wish to abandon their heritage, at least not without good reason.

On this point, and Yamis' comments about 2nd generation Koreans who don't 'feel Korean' – I'd still doubt that they wouldn't put in 'Korean' on their…

Tse,your March 29 blog definition of…

I think that deep in the heart of this "I am an ethnic NZer" thing is an insecurity over one's claim to belonging.

Spot on.

However, I don't think we should look to South American for analogies. On the one hand, the upper classes still claim their pure descent from…

I can't see a lot of Maori agreeing to the premise that because they are NZ citizens then they are Pakeha. Many would point to the fact that although the Pakeha tried their very best to force just that assimilation

and that's the kicker, and why i recommended…

So why is it that this only seems to be expressed by white kiwis; that is, the feeling that they're no longer part of the legacy that conceived them?

It's fitting you should pick Latin America as a comparison – this whole denial of 'legacy' seems very much…

But to throw a spanner in the works though if I may. My daughter is half korean, half European (or at least I hope she is or my wife has some explaining to do).

So what does she check in the box?

I think you can tick as many boxes…

I have a fair knowledge of my ancestry back several generations thanks to…

But the Census does not ask you to fill in your citizenship in the ethnicity question.

Prior to the last census, I did not understand the difference between citizenship and ethnicity. I was one of those people who wondered why it was suggested that I call myself a "European" when…

So why is it that this only seems to be expressed by white kiwis; that is, the feeling…

nationality is a modern construct. one often imbibed with ethnicity to give it greater coherence for it's members, but a…

it does still look, walk, smell, swim and quack like good ol' postcolonial Pakeha to me

Post-colonial? I didn't realise colonisation in Aotearoa was over, when did that happen? Maybe that was what all that horrendously loud fireworks in the vicinity of Mt Eden was about on Saturday night.

National identity can become an ethnic group – at least according to my reading of the ethnicity definition used by Stats NZ (See bottom). Sure, it makes things a little confusing,…

Mmmmm! back to the original blog which was about
the word Asians being non specific as far as race or ethnicity is concerned.I couldn't agree more, and the same applies to European.

I'm afraid that is not what the original blog was about John. 'Asian' may not be specific as…

I'm deeply impressed ...

I can thank, or blame, my partner who has to spend a lot of her time reading such things and had the patience to work thru my hostility to that sort of thing.

But once you get past what seems to be deliberate obscurity there is…

I'm deeply impressed that you were able to figure out what…

Here's the rub. If someone wants to believe in Tane or Krishna or Jesus Christ, that's just fine. But they can't then use that belief to justify political claims, like who belongs in this country.

That's a part of the ongoing process regarding the level of influence of the treaty…

new zealander?

many would say that s/he is not, even with that bit of paper.

so shouldn't the same rule apply to…

I was born in the Mackenzie Country , I have never voted National and I have always filled…

Is that the new Mel "but some of my best mates are Jewish" Gibson's new film?

yes Mel appears to have taken on the indigenous cause with his usual subtlety no doubt, but no it's a french film about how France made use of troops from the North African colonies,…

Remember too that in the 15th century you could buy a ticket from Manila to Spain via Mexico ( and back again just like the Curlews).

Bees to have amazing navigational ability too. But its the ability to…

You should be easily able to compare the navigational accuracy of several craft departing from the same point whose pilots use different techniques.

All that method would do is test the relative validity of various navigational techniques. I was thinking more about scientific explanantion of how said techniques actually work,…

I put "New Zealander" and would like to think that I'm some distance from the right wing. Especially since I have voted for the Greens in the last two elections.

I put a fair amount of thought into it in the period leading up to the census and…

it has a long way to go before it catches up alot of even basic indigenous concepts (see above).

No. We have a long way to go before certain basic indigenous concepts can be shown to have a scientific basis or not.

If you are content to accept ancestral knowledge…

Its not that science or positivism doesn't impress me, often it does, such as right now: I am posting this from the top of an Auckland mountain surrounded by bush with not a telephone jack in sight!

You might be confusing science and technology here, 'though the crossover…

I'm quite happy to run with the idea that Maori have a particular type of connection with this land, but actually, so do I. It's just different from the Maori connection, but no less morally valid.

Actually, in light of your previous…

I'm curious to know, if you aren't impressed with positivism and scientific proof

Its not that science or positivism doesn't impress me, often it does, such as right now: I am posting this from the top of an Auckland mountain surrounded by bush with not a telephone jack in sight!…

But back to basics

I put New Zealander in the box and I have been writting it in/on the official forms for some years
I also live in Waimate where the practise is most common
I would like to add that I have lead a campaign…

Hmmm, is Manakura making such a literal claim?

That is something I will neither confirm nor deny, but I will say that there are complex levels of metaphors operating in every aspect of te ao Maori (the Maori world). Even a single word can have such a dense array of…

I am less concerned with 'Truth' or scientific proof(if I was less lazy I would dig up some references to robust critiques on Positivist constructions such as those) than with what works for me and for the land.

I'm curious to know, if you aren't impressed with positivism and scientific…

No comment on you, Deborah, and I know you didn't do this, but something I hear way too often is disparagement of Maori sensibilities as stoneage or animist or whatever, from people who would never dream of disrespecting mainstream Christian practises which are equally irrational.

Well, I wouldn't do that,…

What I object to is a literal claim that a mountain is your ancestor.

Hmmm, is Manakura making such a literal claim?

I am a descendant of Abraham and my fathers were slaves in Egypt. I can't begin to demonstrate the literal truth of those claims. But those claims are…

Maybe the definition of indigeneity should include a 'not being easily able to return to whence they came' factor. Sure the Maori came by canoe, but there was no established pattern of return to Hawaiki. Similarly the American migration 10,000 yrs ago was cut off…

Fair nuff, it seems you are operating out of a completely different paradigm to me, i.e. one that places faith in posivitism. I wont get into a critique of posivitism, as much as I would love to – I'm a former post-structural discourse junky and I still get the…

So, when I say you remarks are patronising, i mean it is unfair to just dismiss what I and many many people…

Kent Parker:
I think you are loading it with too much of your meaning, so it is losing 'objectivity' and thus universal utility.

Perhaps, I think you will…

The past year-and-a-half's argument over Maori customary title to the foreshore and seabed would not have been so bitter and controversial had not both Maori and Pakeha New Zealanders sensed something defining about themselves in their access to and relationship with our long coastline.

Attachment to land is a double…

In the same chapter of his book, Sinclair…

having active family/iwi affiliations is by no means unique

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that Maori have the monopoly on family – just that actively engaging with one's iwi seems to be the most conclusive additional measure of "being Maori" (alongside blood); in the same way that, say, a…

Finally, back to good old Deborah...

Statistics NZ projections put the Asian population at 860,000 in 20 years, just 10,000 fewer than Maori. Is this what the tangata whenua envisage?

Took me a moment to realise you weren't referring to me, Don, but to Deborah Coddington.

I rather deliberately haven't…

As a person of Scottish heritage I find it very difficult understand how, with the bitter knowledge of the land clearances, fellow "colonists" of Scottish heritage don't have more sympathy for the plight of colonised people anywhere.

Ancestral origin surely should have little or no relevance to a reasonable adult…

Yet Maori culture in any recognisable form is extinct in that branch of the family.

Actually, that's something that interests me – I doubt throwing a poi around would make me feel any more Maori, but probably learning the language would.

But...how much practise of traditional "Maori culture" would make…

I'm open to suggestions as to whether she should class as indigenous.

It's partly an inherent problem of categories – by necessity they are a form of gerneralisaiton and will break down in some circumstances. There's no guarantee that a category such as "indigenous" is always well defined.

The Highland Clearances were almost entirely conducted by the clan chiefs against their clansmen. Just because someone looks like you doesn't mean they're your friend!

Well, yes. Another thing Scots have to be careful about is pointing the finger of blame, the nearest Englishman is usually a bit of a…

I don't know of any mountains anywhere that I could say that of. My ultimate ancestors evolved from apes somewhere in Africa – I thought everyone's did?

If you're of Maori ancestry…

it's something i suspect a great many struggle with.

Thank you Russell and crew.

My less than intelligent contribution is this indiginous debate is this:

I was broadly supportive of the foreshore legislation as I find many of…

Are you saying that Maori must feel a spiritual connection…

Indigeniety "has been co-opted politically by the descendants of settlers who lay claim to an 'indigenous' identity through their occupation and settlement of land over several generations or simply through being born there...

Their [settlers] linguistic and cultural homelend is somewhere else, their cultural loyalty is to some other place.…

I think we can all agree that Statistics New Zealand needs to re-evaluate the way it presents quick summaries of census information so far as it relates to ethnic classifications. They need to make available easy to find charts and tables referring to actual rather than theoretical ethnicities,…

I guess one reason that the Michael King argument for Pakeha culture being an indigenous one seems right to me is that I assumed a different definition of the word "indigenous". One that's closer to the old dictionary definition, derived from biology, of…

"I have not ever doubted many or most Pakeha have developed a strong attachment to Aotearoa "

This may be why many NZers are calling themselves NZers. No longer having close ties with Europe, perhaps never having been there,…