Public Address | Cafe | Yellow Peril: Are you gonna liberate us girls from male, white, corporate oppression?

Sodium Hydroxide

Wed, 16 May 2007 12:07:24 +1200

Marvellous re-presentation of "us" and "them".

Aphorisms:

"Equivalence not equality" – Unattributed

"All cruelty springs from fear"- Seneca

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 18:31:25 +1200

So you're going off to the country...with my money?

Riddley Walker

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:53:24 +1200

we'll be waiting nonchalantly without any premeditation.
i'm heading off to a pre-tech place for a couple of days, have a good weekend.

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:28:30 +1200

I'm going there now but I'm back onto you two later.

Riddley Walker

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:23:49 +1200

walkin' on the beaches lookin' at the peaches

Che Tibby

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:23:34 +1200

hmmmm..... a hue and cry from the man in the desert to the west. if he loses his head, warn jesus.

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:17:23 +1200

Now the real deal comes out, I gotta take heed of my horoscope man. Bogan! Who you calling a bogan? Me? You calling me a bogan? Bogan how?
And R. whatchumean by 'n stuff, I'm watching you now man, you Guinea Pigs, especially you shaved ones, always looking to get…

hamishm

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:13:05 +1200

reunion gig with maybe Hadyn or HamishM on vocals

No way man, I've split that scene.
I'm Moving to the country, I'm gonna eat me a lot of peaches.
Man

Che Tibby

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:11:05 +1200

screw that man, i'm buying a new porche and like, torching it on lambton quay.

they can stick their money.

Jeremy Andrew

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:08:28 +1200

Maybe we are all bogus?

Or do you mean bogans – I hear there's money in that these days.

Riddley Walker

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:07:53 +1200

no way man – i'm using my share for an ecovillagepeople refuge. and che will, like, use it for one too. and stuff.

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 16:05:02 +1200

Thanks man but I'm Experienced and I seen this kind of thing before, next you going to want to use the money for a Harley n stuff, then you and Che'll want a reunion gig with maybe Hadyn or HamishM on vocals, I'm happy in the factory you know, at…

Riddley Walker

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:57:45 +1200

here you go m, relax man. don't get all up with that money and the man and shit.

Riddley Walker

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:55:08 +1200

the good Bishop Russell will protect our humble entry

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:54:05 +1200

That's it man, now you gonna be coming for the whole money, you and Che, who is already onto me (ref Che blog), that THEATRE! creation, that was pure man, now it's all messed up and lawyers coming and all and then Wiki Editors of The Dark Lord, I'm going…

Che Tibby

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:52:00 +1200

sweeeet. two contributors will keep the filters off our backs.

Riddley Walker

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:49:05 +1200

oh don't quibble m, you're in it for the mojo.

the PA link was broken, so i added in a bit of etymology too.

Che Tibby

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:41:27 +1200

there's still the chance an editor might ixnay it.

we'll rely on the power of archbishop brown.

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:37:30 +1200

Come on R. we ain't in this for the moola, we in for the mojo. Anyway 25%, where you get off cutting me out of my 25%, you think I'm funny, funny how...

Riddley Walker

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:33:55 +1200

nice one Che. m and I want 50/50 royalties, but you can have 25% of his if you like.

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:33:42 +1200

Dude, you are all powerful and I accede to the Final Theatre!

Che Tibby

Fri, 04 May 2007 15:28:45 +1200

for the benefit of all involved, i am calling a final theatre

(hint: check under Verb)

merc

Fri, 04 May 2007 14:59:18 +1200

Maybe we are all bogus?

Juha Saarinen

Fri, 04 May 2007 14:53:42 +1200

Yeah, I know. That WoW thing I posted is bogus. I knew it. Sure I did. I mean, it was on the intarweb wasn't it?

Nobody Important

Fri, 04 May 2007 10:33:02 +1200

f'schizzle!

anjum rahman

Thu, 03 May 2007 23:01:56 +1200

hey, i'm all for being called up to cause a little mayhem on someone's blog, in the name of fostering diversity. where do i sign up??

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 22:04:47 +1200

dogs would probably be total over-promise-ers

yeah totally, they'd be all japanese and never say no and remain really polite no matter how stupid your request... and then just not do it.

Finn of course you're right. i once worked with a jewish lesbian one-armed fur seal and she was…

Finn Higgins

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:53:45 +1200

Manakura, I'd be all in favour of more female or, indeed, non-white-boy voices basically everywhere I hang out on the internet – but with that said, I'm not sure that specifically asking blogs to include more female or minority-sourced comment is going to yield the best results.

As an analogy,…

Span .

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:51:35 +1200

Manakura, I have on rare occasions emailed a few like-minded people in hope they will comment on particular bad threads, and sometimes it works. But I kind of feel like it's cheating. Not sure why.

On the cats vs dogs issue – I can see downsides in both. Cats would…

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:45:51 +1200

Bring on the empty horses!

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:35:47 +1200

precisely

hamishm

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:19:22 +1200

no it's just a slow burning fuse, this is the intermission.

Yup, Shakespeare had clowns too.

Manakura

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:16:42 +1200

Kia ora Span,

Manakura, on the issue of raising the lack of women, I've been doing this out there on the other nz pol blogs for quite some time now and doing so buys a whole world of trouble most times

As most here know I'm all for the lone…

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:13:01 +1200

Yeah burning ember...thinks to himself this may be The Fizzle challenge.

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 19:10:25 +1200

and so fizzles the ... thread

no it's just a slow burning fuse, this is the intermission.

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 18:20:58 +1200

Damn, yup Muppets, blast, I have failed this thread and I apologize...the pressure got to me and now The Fizzle, it will be hard to come back from this.

Nobody Important

Thu, 03 May 2007 18:11:15 +1200

and so fizzles the "Yellow Peril: Are you gonna liberate us girls from male, white, corporate oppression?" thread ...

... not with a bang but a rousing discussions on who would be the better tradespet: cats or dogs?

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 18:08:59 +1200

wasn't Dr Bob on The Muppets?
(Isn't he in TGN)

hamishm

Thu, 03 May 2007 18:07:31 +1200

Sorry, cats would be hopeless tradespersons. All the the pipes would be disconnected, the floor would be knee deep in water and the cat would be on the table saying, "You better do something about this"

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 18:05:51 +1200

Bysshe's pussycat trademan (vet) is called Dr Bob, I kid you not, remember Dr Bob (the dog) on Sesame Street?

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 17:58:50 +1200

but it sounds like Span got a pussycat tradesman

Nobody Important

Thu, 03 May 2007 15:51:59 +1200

good to hear it Span!

(PA rules: tradesman talk = OK; pussykat talk = Not OK)
(yes, I hate cats)(and dogs)

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 15:23:36 +1200

yeah go on Trudy

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 15:18:12 +1200

Post again, right now, don't think about it, first thing to pop in your head, dare ya!

Trudy Mc

Thu, 03 May 2007 15:05:59 +1200

A first and possibly last post...
I read Public Address to have my faith in intelligent thoughtful political debate renewed and restored on a regular basis. I choose to come to this site because the writing here is well informed (moreso than I am) and it tends to express opinions…

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 14:38:19 +1200

I see at LinuxChix "...activities will include... linux install fests."

wow, that's got to be up there with actuaries' "in-jokes" about Poisson distributions.

Span .

Thu, 03 May 2007 14:24:04 +1200

And no cups of tea were harmed in the process either. Which is good cos I'm crap at making tea.

Span .

Thu, 03 May 2007 14:23:22 +1200

(Answering NoIm's aside)

NoIm, you'll be pleased to know that the electrician was only a little late (and he rang to tell me he would be) and was fabulous. Very nice, very competent, and did a good job. Except he forgot to turn the power back on to the lights,…

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 14:02:05 +1200

THEAT__ ooh, it's marginal...

Don Christie

Thu, 03 May 2007 13:14:51 +1200

There is becoming an established PA tradition that Tze's threads run on ... for evar (welcome back BTW).

So in that vein I offer the following:

Shorter: What Juha said.

Hmmm, I might have agreed until recently. A few months back I mentioned a technical conference in Aussie where we…

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:53:52 +1200

The WOW zone.

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:52:55 +1200

R. Yes it does, but it was me, I have this notion of life that is mine. Air = Logos, Earth = cthonic, sort of but I can switch when I know the Moon is masculine on it's other side (like Hobbits do)...However, despite wrestling with gender and person and…

Heather Gaye

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:44:54 +1200

the men don't talk to me, sob.

probably too busy working. Y'know, in the zone. Oh, I should probably be there too. *coff*

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:40:50 +1200

I work in it and thank God for the women, the men don't talk to me, sob.

Riddley Walker

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:40:38 +1200

m, that sounds like Rousseau's transition from amour propre to amour de soi. well, except for women in the air and stuff.

Nobody Important

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:39:53 +1200

as an aside (waaaay off topic):

Posted by SPAN at 8:04AM on 3 May 07. .
So much I want to say on this but the electrician and plumber are hopefully about to walk in the door, so for now...

Let me guess, they still haven't shown up , and…

Heather Gaye

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:33:37 +1200

This is great

Yeah, actually, it just occurred to me now that she was probably hunting for some indication of rampant misogyny that was exclusive to IT. I know a couple of women that had some problems in university engineering courses, but my experience of the industry has been all…

merc

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:26:34 +1200

During the interview she told me the one theory that looked most plausible was that would-be career women don't feel the need to prove themselves so much, so they're more motivated to enter a career they actually enjoy.

This is great and applies equally for some males I might add,…

Heather Gaye

Thu, 03 May 2007 11:18:13 +1200

Strictly on the subject of the lack of female political bloggers, and primarily from my experience of kiwi political blogs, in the sense that they're not viciously misogynist in the way that the blogs that have hit the news are (well, except where they're viciously anti-everything, misogyny doesn't really come…

Juha Saarinen

Thu, 03 May 2007 08:50:34 +1200

Not quite a non-sequitur, but do not gank women WoWsers whatever you do.

Russell Brown

Thu, 03 May 2007 08:24:39 +1200

Disclaimer: I accept no responsibility for any deluge of emails to RBs inbox demanding more Lesbian Maori Muslim Treaty Lawyer Amputee Bloggers on PA.

Heh. I can't do much about the demographic, other than trying to run a welcoming lounge in line with my own philosophy. I can't solve the…

Span .

Thu, 03 May 2007 08:04:10 +1200

So much I want to say on this but the electrician and plumber are hopefully about to walk in the door, so for now...

Manakura, on the issue of raising the lack of women, I've been doing this out there on the other nz pol blogs for quite some time…

Deborah

Wed, 02 May 2007 22:00:26 +1200

Kia kaha, Manakura!

Manakura

Wed, 02 May 2007 21:55:04 +1200

Thanks for the props gals ... and guys... and while I'm at it thanks Anjum for appreciating excessive commenting on Thread That Would Not Die I. It is tiring being the only one in your corner and I have huge respect for peoples such as yourself that don't feel the…

Che Tibby

Wed, 02 May 2007 12:20:17 +1200

a few of the bigger companies in australia put a clause in their contracts.

"that any complaints from the public will result in withdrawal of said contract, and no further acceptance of tenders by that company."

quietest (but leery-est) damn construction sites you've ever seen.

but as for harrassment. i…

B Jones

Wed, 02 May 2007 12:12:28 +1200

It sounds like the construction workers were teasing, both the passers-by and Manakura. This requires special defensive mental judo techniques, and it is why Emma's response worked.

Actually that's worth considering in the context of online harassment.

Emma Hart

Wed, 02 May 2007 11:47:55 +1200

PS: If anyone has any suggestions on how to remedy the situation I'm all ears... I like the idea of a 1000 women showing up at lunchtime one day, surrounding the site and wolf whistling/cat calling to their hearts content. No no, 500 wahine and 500 tane turning up would…

Anorak

Wed, 02 May 2007 11:38:43 +1200

Manakura – just a wee note to say thanks for trying.
I don't think you shouldn't have spoken up.
As Riddley said, maybe you will have got through to some of them...either way, you know you did the right thing, and that's a good feeling even if the result wasn't…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 02 May 2007 10:34:39 +1200

Great posts Finn and Deborah.
I'd just add that in my experience (referencing my not-so-inner geek) there's something or things about computers that bring out the obsessive-compulsive in men at least and I suspect people.
I'm almost convinced there's a simple behaviourist explanation :-)- click = instant satisfaction .... when…

Riddley Walker

Wed, 02 May 2007 10:28:38 +1200

your workmates' response made me laugh Manakura, i know exactly what you mean. i guess all you can do is fight the battles you can win.
their 'new and improved harrassment plus' will soon go back to baseline. but you should take some solace in the fact too that some…

Anne M

Wed, 02 May 2007 07:30:09 +1200

That was very enlightening Finn, thank you

Joe Wylie

Tue, 01 May 2007 23:08:28 +1200

Great post Finn.
While communities of male obsessives may not necessarily be inherently malicious, I have a feeling that there's a huge resentment generated from the way in which they're often complicit in their own exploitation. Technology and a lack of imagination makes a dangerous combination, and even women aren't…

Manakura

Tue, 01 May 2007 21:59:50 +1200

Coming to the party very late I have just sat and read the whole 9 pages of comments. Not sure if my eyes or brain hurts more.

I just want to put one more nail in the coffin: clearly there are difference between threats directed at women and those directed…

kmont

Tue, 01 May 2007 21:52:10 +1200

Thanks Finn that was really interesting.

Danielle

Tue, 01 May 2007 21:12:52 +1200

Erm. Well after the ship has sailed, Deborah, I want to join the props-giving chorus. Your analysis of the different kinds of feminism was great. (Essentialism: incredibly annoying, yet in some ways inescapable? Discuss.)

(Parenthetically, the discussion about why women don't speak up in online political fora reminded me of…

Che Tibby

Tue, 01 May 2007 20:15:59 +1200

Perhaps the two strategies, yoru pragmatism, and my call-them-on-it, need to be deployed together.

viva la difference

Deborah

Tue, 01 May 2007 19:57:19 +1200

Wow. Thank you, Finn. That has given me a lot to think about. Particularly because I have already bought into your point about the extraordinary things that men (and some women) can achieve through their single minded focus. As you say, it's a blessing. And of course, a curse. Likewise…

Russell Brown

Tue, 01 May 2007 19:49:01 +1200

That was really good, Finn. I could (hah!) probably debate bits and pieces of it, but I'm most grateful to you and Deborah for putting in the spadework.

Finn Higgins

Tue, 01 May 2007 19:40:45 +1200

I've been a bit left behind by this thread as I've been – shock horror – working at work instead of writing at work (I know, curse my name) but I'd just like to chip in belatedly and thank Deborah for the post that made this entire blog entry/thread worth…

Deborah

Tue, 01 May 2007 19:25:33 +1200

especially you debs. i think we, once again, wrote the same piece (i think we need to co-author a journal article).

Yes.... it's a bit worrying. Great minds or fools?

"Debs"?!!! "Deb" if you please, or the full moniker, or even "Hey, you!"

BTW, when Che says we wrote the…

Riddley Walker

Tue, 01 May 2007 11:14:22 +1200

laptop perched on my knees

Oi, is that Robyn Draper i hear? better not be any shiraz in the next post or there could be trubba.

Che Tibby

Tue, 01 May 2007 10:59:20 +1200

thanks riddley.

took a bit of writing, laptop perched on my knees in airports.

but then... better than confinement-to-office.

would be interested in comments from any female commenters here.

especially you debs. i think we, once again, wrote the same piece (i think we need to co-author a journal article).

Emma Hart

Tue, 01 May 2007 10:35:58 +1200

Cheers, Deborah, that was a lovely post and I agree with pretty much all of it. I'd just add a couple of caveats.

I think gender does matter, I think it does make us different, and I think that's great. It's one of a number of things that makes us…

Riddley Walker

Tue, 01 May 2007 10:15:48 +1200

nice theatre Che

Russell Brown

Tue, 01 May 2007 08:57:04 +1200

I think the Kathy Sierra story is a classic instance of this. She wasn't abused for having opinions, or for writing, or for being out there in public. She was abused for having the temerity to be a woman. Hmmm... maybe that's an exaggeration. Maybe she was successful and popular,…

Juha Saarinen

Tue, 01 May 2007 08:42:05 +1200

So, something good came out of this otherwise not particularly pleasant discussion, and that's Deborah's comment. It's common sense and inclusive. Deborah++

Your hubby isn't an ODM, surely... he's an EODM. :)

Che Tibby

Tue, 01 May 2007 08:35:33 +1200

theatre

Sue

Tue, 01 May 2007 07:46:13 +1200

good blog russell

and if anyone wants crafty girl blogs let me know, i have huuge list.

the reason crafty girls don't bother with political stuff. wee we are all far to busy engaging in swaps, sending gifts and supporting each other :)

Riddley Walker

Tue, 01 May 2007 01:51:11 +1200

Excellent post thanks Deborah and 81st.

As a hairless pink guinea pig of indeterminate gender, I too often feel marginalized in the blogosphere and hence my reluctance to comment much on this thread.

But I find it difficult to understand the miserliness of spirit that can’t handle something being dedicated,…

81stcolumn

Tue, 01 May 2007 00:58:40 +1200

Don’t you know that its different for girls…….

I have been ruminating on what useful contribution I can make here without stating what seems to me at least to be obvious and still being helpful. I have stuck to stuff I know about.

Psychology lecture follows:

Reasonably good science suggests…

kmont

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:53:44 +1200

anjum i agree about woman pulling out as things started to go down downhill. Interesting isnt it. Either you get angry and feel foolish for "posting while angry" or you spend so much energy in reasoned arguement that is not going to convince the person concerned. Meanwhile the subject at…

kmont

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:42:48 +1200

yanked back up, yay!

Thanks.

I just wrote a really long post and it appears to be lost. Maybe a good thing it was rather rambling.

Anorak

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:32:41 +1200

Holy smokes, Deborah, you've said a mouthful!
There's a lot there I'll need to reread, but:

" But as long as ordinary decent men and ordinary decent women turn the other way and ignore the attacks, then the hate mongers will feel they have a licence to persist. We really…

anjum rahman

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:27:13 +1200

it's interesting about women's voices in the public sphere. i haven't bothered to go through and count, but i bet this thread still has more male than female contributors. and watching what was happening, most of the women were pulling out as things started going downhill.

so one of tze…

Anorak

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:07:56 +1200

Thanks for fixing my link, The Unseen Hand!
I'm still trying to learn tags and stuff. (Perhaps this is one reason I only ever comment on feminist and progressive sites: fear of ridicule when "they" work out I'm no computer whizz).

Another reason would be that I don't really enjoy…

Deborah

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:59:39 +1200

Yet another day engaged in thinking about this issue – thank you! And thank you to the people who have contacted me off-line, and pushed my thinking along. You will see your influence in what I have written.... over several glasses of wine, and a brandy to top it all…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:36:32 +1200

Sorry Russell, I felt bad after posting that and I appreciate your comments. I suppose I'd had a stressout day and I was surprised you read your comments because you aren't normally like that from what I've read. But if you meant them as a friend to Tze and by…

nanoplanet

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:21:02 +1200

Sorry Russell, I felt bad after posting that and I appreciate your comments. I suppose I'd had a stressout day and I was surprised you read your comments because you aren't normally like that from what I've read. But if you meant them as a friend to Tze and by…

Linda

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:16:19 +1200

Re Cactus v Lucyna

Laughed like a hyena .. does that rhyme with lucyna?
While contemplating the Jelly wrestling post – I flicked to Wanda Harland where a deeply interesting poll is being conducted.
Marmite v Vegemite. Nature v nuture.
Sorry Russell and Tze Ming – maybe some of us…

Deborah

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:56:11 +1200

No. Can't stand the social and moral conservatism of one, and the sheer viciousness of the other.

Although , I have only just started reading Span, which has been my loss.

I read DPF, but less and less, and I don't comment anymore, not only because of the cesspit in…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:39:30 +1200

I'm a bit sad about where this thread has ended up, but it's not too late to yank it back is it?
Here's a little (not unrelated, but deeply funny and bizarre) light relief

Heh. And the funny thing is, I was just thinking about Cactus Kate and Lucyna, two…

Danyl Mclauchlan

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:26:57 +1200

I'm a bit sad about where this thread has ended up, but it's not too late to yank it back is it?

Here's a little (not unrelated, but deeply funny and bizarre) light relief

Danyl Mclauchlan

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:23:58 +1200

I'm a bit sad about where this thread has ended up, but it's not too late to yank it back is it?

Here's a little light relief

Span .

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:20:42 +1200

I'm a bit sad about where this thread has ended up, but it's not too late to yank it back is it?

Yamis

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:05:38 +1200

Shucks.

I actually read the original blog, thought it was quite interesting, then saw the bit about white boys and thought that's a bit of a cheap shot but spent 60 seconds to get over it because what was surrounding it was thought provoking enough, and then actually posted (3rd)…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:29:50 +1200

I nearly ran away from here because of d4j's polemics. And I don't much like some of the stuff on this thread, which I'm carefully not reading.
Yeah, I guess I'm a wimp or a coward or something.

If it's the time I'm thinking of, I was watching D4J pretty…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:25:05 +1200

I urge you to read the blog post I linked to , which is getting more pertinent with every post.

Good post. And jeez, what a mammoth (and occasionally pretty weird) comments thread.

But unless I've got it wrong and should just STFU (nb: should there be any doubt, this…

Anne M

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 18:19:05 +1200

OK – well, I don't post on any other blogs or at any other forums beyond my closed group of mothers because on the interwebby, as in real life, I don't like shouting, I don't like ranting and I don't like personal abuse.

I nearly ran away from here because…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:39:50 +1200

All right.

Mustering whatever mana I have here, I think it's time to declare this part of the discussion closed, because it only seems likely to repeat itself. Either carry on with the main topic or post in another thread, thanks.

Anorak

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:30:52 +1200

Finn,
I'm sorry if you were offended by my use of internet slang.
My cases, however, are not mixed. I used capitals for proper nouns.
I think this thread was hijacked when it stopped being about online harrassment which disproportionately targets women, and possible solutions to that harrassment, and became…

stephen walker

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:28:04 +1200

But hey, how often do us white middle-class males get to call for some Political Correctness to demarginalise us?

Yeah. Too right. Let's all pile in and tell this...person, where to get off! How dare she use loaded terms to describe our poor, marginalised selves. I mean...

white!
boys!
playground!…

Finn Higgins

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:20:18 +1200

Nanoplanet – I don't think you're really on strong ground telling somebody to butt out on a forum they paid for the development of and who pays for the servers that host it. Tze Ming would be well within her rights to expect discussion of her posts to be polite…

Danyl Mclauchlan

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:17:14 +1200

Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!
Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.

Sheeesh, I can't believe how this thread has degenerated.
Any of the precious and offended notice the title? Yellow Peril.…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:09:07 +1200

Yes, this thread has grown into something out of proportion to Tze Ming's throwaway comment. But hey, how often do us white middle-class males get to call for some Political Correctness to demarginalise us? ;)

Yes, that occurred to me too ...

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:07:00 +1200

Russell I would have thought that if you couldn’t manage loyalty to other contributors you might at least but out. I have a lot of respect for your journalism but your judgement in some your comments on this thread is way off.

I'm really sorry you feel that way, but…

Mark Easterbrook

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:03:31 +1200

Any of the precious and offended notice the title? Yellow Peril. I think that implies that references to ethnicity via colour are meant with just a little bit of mirth and irony.

Yes, but as noted earlier, there is a difference between self-referential humour and comments directed at others. To…

Anorak

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:00:48 +1200

I'll try that link again, otherwise try the ol' cut and paste.

[ [http://pandagon.net/2007/04/13/how-to-not-be-an-asshole-a-guide-for-men/] ]

Anorak

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:57:39 +1200

I too am surprised at the turn this discussion has taken.
There is certainly a problem with all kinds of online harrassment, but surely a blog for Take Back The Blog, an initiative set up to show support for Kathy Sierra, doesn't need to be full of "what about teh…

nanoplanet

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:53:15 +1200

Sheeesh, I can't believe how this thread has degenerated.
Any of the precious and offended notice the title? Yellow Peril. I think that implies that references to ethnicity via colour are meant with just a little bit of mirth and irony.
Steven if you want to throw yourself in the…

nanoplanet

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:45:08 +1200

Mark Easterbrook

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:42:13 +1200

Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!
Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.

An alert went out on the secret White Boy Wire (a network of corporate stooges, misogynists, colonisers and private school…

3410

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:40:54 +1200

This is too wierd. I'm out too.

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:33:15 +1200

Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!
Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.

Ahem. People have a right to express offence in civil terms. You have a right to believe they're overdoing it.…

Finn Higgins

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:02:30 +1200

Russell, my point about the similarity is not in the style of the abuse, it's in the severity. As I recounted earlier, I've seen somebody subjected to that kind of abuse inside the last year who is white, male and otherwise fairly nondescript other than having an involvement in an…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:38:59 +1200

BTW, I've just talked to Karen Gregory-Hunt for a story on online abuse she's doing for Radio NZ.

Usual stuff: the problem's not technology, it's people; this isn't entirely new, but no one's licked the "not turning into Usenet" problem; what came out from under rocks in the Kathy Sierra…

hamishm

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:51:26 +1200

Lindsay Beyerstein also talks about this in her blog, with a few examples. Majikthise is a great blog, BTW.
She makes good points and underlines the unifying theme that we can, at least, see in this thread despite the disagreements. No one likes this stuff and when it happens, people…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:44:37 +1200

But the problem and the available solutions are identical to those faced by anybody else who's the target of abuse online – often those holding controversial opinions. As such I don't see that raising the problem as a gender-specific issue is going to address any practical solution.

But I don't…

3410

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:38:13 +1200

I agree, Tze Ming. This is so overblown.

Out of all the jokes made on PA, some of them infinitely more cutting, this one gets all the attention?!

Makes you wonder if there's not some reason for it.

I note that this was your first post in six weeks, which…

Finn Higgins

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:21:46 +1200

Jesus you people are fast. Don't you work?

A few things at a time...

Andrew Llewellyn – me too with the hand-delivered god-bothering, but replace "SPCS" with "Destiny" and "Dom Post" with "Herald". That was about the point where I started making sure I'd considered the likelyhood of any real…

Tze Ming Mok

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 13:07:45 +1200

Okay, look – I don't see where I was 'tarring' anyone with the same 'white boy' brush as any evil imperialist, when I said 'white boy's playground'. In an earlier draft of the post, I even referred to whether we 'girls' wanted to 'play' or 'not play' in said sandpit…

Heather Gaye

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:59:51 +1200

...the revelation in this particular case was those astounding 25-to-1 AOL figures. I know it's a small part of the net, and perhaps we're different round these here parts, but seriously, twenty-five to one???

Heather Gaye

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:55:44 +1200

Rich said:

If I'm right, it's reasonable to assume that anyone who threatens you is no more likely to take on physical form than the characters in a video game. So treat the nasty people as a string of bits, delete their outpourings and move on.

For a few weeks…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:21:56 +1200

I once got an email so amazingly abusive it made me cry for three days. From a woman, who was employing me at the time.

The most outrageously abusive email I've ever had was from Nick Wood, after I wrote a story based on a highly abusive Ihug staff memo…

andrew llewellyn

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:14:34 +1200

this one

andrew llewellyn

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:12:39 +1200

That should have been a clever link displayed simply as "this one?"

Oh well.

andrew llewellyn

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:11:37 +1200

I seem to recall getting the strange hand-delivered letter once too.

Anything like http://sunnyo.blogspot.com/2005/03/god-mispelled-my-name.html?

Emma Hart

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:07:38 +1200

There have been times I've been very glad that I live in NZ, and the effort required from the odd freak who can't tell me from my role-playing character to seriously RL-stalk me is prohibitively huge.

I don't think anyone wants to trivialise real-life physical violence: at least with on-line…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:48:26 +1200

Out of interest, has anyone *ever* been physically attacked or even approached by anyone in NZ as a result of Internet discussion?

I get bailed up by strangers fairly often, which is usually gratifying and cool.

But I've also had a couple of people obtain my phone number by deceit…

andrew llewellyn

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:37:42 +1200

Out of interest, has anyone *ever* been physically attacked or even approached by anyone in NZ as a result of Internet discussion?

Not internet, but as a result of a letter I wrote to the DomPost a few years back, I received a hand delivered letter full of gibberish & warnings…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:57:02 +1200

Christ that was a long post.

It's the Curse of Tze Ming: long posts, and long threads with a notably high poster-to-lurker ratio. This is a good thing.

Mark Easterbrook

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:14:53 +1200

Alert! White Boy chiming in...

Away from my desk last week, or I would have come to this sooner...

Tze Ming, I think the root of the offence that some of the other white boy's here have taken is that, to throw a blanket term over all white males unfairly…

WH

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:59:31 +1200

On reflection I have to admit that I pay more attention to your posts Tze Ming because you pick up on issues that no one else on PA does.

Ditto that. Tze Ming's work is always interesting, even if I am part of the white male corporate oppression she is…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:34:35 +1200

I don't get the idea of a symbolic online event to exclusively express solidarity with female bloggers who have been subjected to harassment etc, when there's plenty of bloggers who aren't female who're victims of the exact same behavior. Why arbitrarily restrict your solidarity?

Because protests against, say, "all bad…

Finn Higgins

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:23:39 +1200

However the thread has been skewed in various directions, the Take Back the Blog blogswarm is a symbolic online event to express solidarity with female bloggers who have been subjected to harassment, intimidation and threats of violence. If Finn really doesn't get that... well, wow – I'm sorry too!

Thanks…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:22:32 +1200

However the thread has been skewed in various directions, the Take Back the Blog blogswarm is a symbolic online event to express solidarity with female bloggers who have been subjected to harassment, intimidation and threats of violence ...

I assume it's an adaptation of the "Take back the night" mobilisations…

Russell Brown

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:15:38 +1200

Ultimately, dude, this post wasn't about you; it was about us. I hope you can get over it.

Hmmm ... "get over it" ...

Tze Ming, Steven's initial post was sincere, and your answer — "precious", "not about you", "sad", "perceived slight" — was dismissive and somewhat bullying in tone.…

Tze Ming Mok

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 04:12:30 +1200

Finn said:

Why talk of "Taking back" blogs ...? I don't get that, sorry.

However the thread has been skewed in various directions, the Take Back the Blog blogswarm is a symbolic online event to express solidarity with female bloggers who have been subjected to harassment, intimidation and threats of…

Sonal Patel

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 01:56:56 +1200

Jumping out from the shadows (but only briefly) ...

I haven't commented on PA System that often, some of it has to do with being away from NZ, some of it has to do with not being too fired up issues raised (one notable exception being the thread that would…

Nobody Important

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:37:25 +1200

does this thread get extra credit for inspiring some of the longest posts on PA?

stephen walker

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:34:01 +1200

that's part of the reason why i never get involved in threads about muslims. they are so many negative and really harsh voices, yes even on pa, and i feel like a lone battler who can't possibly take them all on.

There were some discussions a few months ago in…

Sue

Mon, 30 Apr 2007 00:09:47 +1200

Out of interest, has anyone *ever* been physically attacked or even approached by anyone in NZ as a result of Internet discussion?

Does it really matter?
is abuse only bad if it's physical?

anjum rahman

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:59:07 +1200

aaagh!! i hate that i came to this thread so late... been busy all weekend. and i can't believe i turned off "sleeping dogs" to read it, but it seems to be just too important, and have too many wonderful contributions. thanx tze ming for your post that started this…

nanoplanet

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:53:13 +1200

OK Tze you have convinced me. Time to start commenting and not just watching from the wings.

Joe Wylie

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:27:10 +1200

A lot of the worst behaviour (and some of the fun!:-) would disappear overnight if the perps knew their real names would magically (techno-magically!) appear next to their comment/blog post next day.

Amen to that – which is pretty much the 'crap life' visited on Kathy Sierra by those 'perps'…

Rob Stowell

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:12:08 +1200

With regard to death threats- or any such direct threats against one's person: It'd creep me out completely. I'd report it, too. Lying awake at night listening for creaks and scuffles is a crap life. And for all that you can reassure yourself it's not likely anything will really happen,…

Finn Higgins

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:11:12 +1200

Hence the vulnerable note in Finn's post above. Finn seems to want to sound a "me too" idea in his story about his friend, and "it wasn't me" in response to the whole discussion that Tze Ming has raised. Finn, everyone here knows it wasn't you, and I suspect that…

Rob Stowell

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:52:14 +1200

What a conference-worth of great ideas!
I wish I had some insight into the bad behaviour of men in cyberspace. I don't. I've certainly seen it, and I've mostly not called it- gutless perhaps. But it hasn't happened in places I wanted to be. The on-line communities worth being in…

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:14:46 +1200

Out of interest, has anyone *ever* been physically attacked or even approached by anyone in NZ as a result of Internet discussion?

I've never heard of a case. The nearest would be the NF with their blacklists, but I don't think even they actually take it to physical confrontation with…

Deborah

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 21:00:45 +1200

So much for a quiet peaceful Sunday, having lunch with friends, doing some baking for the school lunches this week, washing and mending some clothes, supervising homework, generally just pottering around doing home things. I have spent most of the day thinking abut feminist political theory, and about whether I…

Grant McDougall

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:39:03 +1200

Again, as an aside, great to see Goo refered to in the thread's title. The 2cd deluxe edition is a cracker. According to SY's website there's a – drooooool – 2cd deluxe edition of Daydream Nation coming out soonish. It's a classic of course, but I gotta say that EVOL…

Megan Clayton

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:04:13 +1200

Tze Ming, you mention Steve Braunias' praise of your "muscular prose style". There has been quite a bit of critical work done in the last twenty to twenty-five years of the gendering of language in New Zealand writing, particularly, but not limited to, poetry and criticism. John Newton puts this…

Juha Saarinen

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:59:21 +1200

To chime in with Span's post, yeah... you don't get any protection from being male and ang mo whitey on the 'Net. Hatred and bigotry are colour-blind and gender-neutral.

Span .

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:46:20 +1200

Bear with me, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to say this right, but I do find it frustrating when the negative experiences some women have had in political engagement are explained away. It's like it didn't happen, when it did.

I know there are some women who…

Finn Higgins

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:22:51 +1200

B Jones & Tze Ming,

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to quote and reply to B rather than Tze, but I'm trying to engage both if you catch my drift...

Yes, and treating the problem in purely people-vs-people terms misses the point that a lot of the threats take on…

3410

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:05:32 +1200

What are you actually embarrassed about 3410?
What did you do?

I'm embarrassed by some of my brothers' childish expressions of outrage and their insensitive hijacking of this thread.

Emma Hart

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:56:38 +1200

Erm. Insert the word 'go' into above post so it actually makes sense...

Emma Hart

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:54:00 +1200

Contrary to Emma's view, I think the contributions by women to this thread, including her own, have been revealing and important

Never actually said I didn't think that, I don't think...

Emma is at one extreme of liberal feminism (sorry if you don't count yourself as a feminist at all…

Tze Ming Mok

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:41:37 +1200

3410 said:

Tze Ming, don't give up. I reckon you should start a new chicks-only thread & and get back to business. :)

Emma said:

Oh good grief, can we not?

I said: LOL. Although I very much appreciate the rest of 3140's original comment, I agree that a 'Women only-thread'…

Riddley Walker

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:57:56 +1200

good topic TMM and nice to see you posting again.

i read your and Span's stuff often and will starting reading Maia.
I agree that 1) there needs to be more women writing here and elsewhere and 2) women often get a harder time of it. i would like to…

B Jones

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:56:26 +1200

That's the one I meant. 25 times, not 10 times. A quick google would have helped.

Tze Ming Mok

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:46:26 +1200

Finn, you wrote:

threats of violence and aggressive stand-over tactics are not something that is exclusively restricted to women online, or I'd argue something that is even directed more at women than men.

A fair guess, but quickly disproven by research. Webweaver's post, among the many others on this topic,…

B Jones

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:43:50 +1200

Yes, and treating the problem in purely people-vs-people terms misses the point that a lot of the threats take on a specifically gendered tone, when assholes go bad. If you're visibly female and on the internet, you're more likely to run into assholes. I can't remember the citation for it,…

Emma Hart

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:38:31 +1200

Tze Ming, don't give up. I reckon you should start a new chicks-only thread & and get back to business. :)

Oh good grief, can we not? I assume I fit in the 'girls and ladies' category, and I like the sparring. What I don't like is abuse, no matter who's…

Finn Higgins

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:29:42 +1200

Well, after a long period of lurking this thread actually convinced me to register an account on PA.

A few points.

The internet is, by its nature, probably the most equal-opportunities system you could imagine. You get a choice as to how you present yourself, what gender or race you…

3410

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:04:42 +1200

[I]sn't turning a discussion about women's exclusion from online discussion through threats of violence into an argument about how unfair it is to denigrate "white boys" exactly an illustration of what Tze Ming is saying?

Yes it is. As a guy, I've watched this thread with growing embarrassment. "deeply offended"?…

Juha Saarinen

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:17:50 +1200

Interesting twisting there, but none of it particularly good. You can actually make your important points without resorting to race and gender-baiting because if you do that, well, it doesn't really move the discussion forward, does it?

Doesn't matter what the context is, sorry.

B Jones

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:53:16 +1200

Dammit, now I have The Killers' Where the White Boys Dance stuck in my head.

B Jones

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 13:19:16 +1200

unless you're saying that women's online voice is one of race and gender-baiting and nobody should be allowed to opine against that.
Actually, that is what you're saying.

No – Tze Ming made a bunch of important points about women's ability to participate online in the face of threats of…

Rob Stowell

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:46:50 +1200

Fair point, B Jones. And you'll be missed here, Yellow Peril- spinner of threads that will not die.
I 'spect this will be another- we've hardly engaged the question yet, let alone diverted it totally to get your opinions about Chinese mathematics!

Sue

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:30:59 +1200

the complaints of injustice nicely worded.

to me that somewhat implies that you see no injustice online.

i see it every day, and not just towards women, but we do seem to make neat and tidy targets.

Juha Saarinen

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:29:50 +1200

No, not really, unless you're saying that women's online voice is one of race and gender-baiting and nobody should be allowed to opine against that.

Actually, that is what you're saying.

B Jones

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:20:42 +1200

Tze Ming:

... I knew, whatever the demographics of my own readership and private correspondence, a comments section is always a white boy's playground. But hey, white boys gotta play somewhere, and at least it's clean!

Flip way of saying it, sure, but isn't turning a discussion about women's exclusion from…

Juha Saarinen

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:40:47 +1200

I don't think anyone's offended as such by simple terms to denote your gender and (perceived) skin colour.

But as Steven and Danyl point out, race and gender-baiting is distasteful. You know, that little thing called context. Sure, you can be childish and pretend otherwise, and probably get away with…

B Jones

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:36:07 +1200

Are you sure they wouldn't still just opine about why they think women do things a certain way, and point out how unjust it is that they're excluded? Because that's what I've seen happen in most conversations in a mixed audience about women's issues. Even here – it's just that…

Che Tibby

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:17:46 +1200

I think it's sad that your repeated appearances were so focused on some perceived slight to yourself, and had no substantial contribution to the wider issue. Ultimately, dude, this post wasn't about you; it was about us. I hope you can get over it.

then... why take a swing at…

Danyl Mclauchlan

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 07:03:32 +1200

I don't see what's so offensive, or incorrect, about observing that comments threads on any political blog from the West (apart from dedicated feminist sites or dedicated ethnic minority sites) are generally dominated by white males.
If you are white, it is odd that you are offended by the term…

81stcolumn

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 05:42:24 +1200

What are the women doing instead of commenting on blogsites?

I like the idea that perhaps girls are doing something better; but I get hung up on my own experience of some girls still lacking the confidence to formulate an opinion on an issue or missing the confidence to express…

webweaver

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 03:09:32 +1200

Although I am much more of a lurker here than a poster (thus far) I've found Public Address to be far and away the most civilised and intelligent political community here in Enzed. You're "my kind of people" and I spend quite a lot of time here in the shadows.…

Nobody Important

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 01:02:29 +1200

mmm, I wonder why RB hasn't responded to that suggestion?

(damn, and I did use the preview button) (it must be late)

Nobody Important

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:43:52 +1200

A regular poster told me on another PA thread that they'd always wondered if my breasts were real. I was quite taken aback by that ... not what I expected here on PA. It was more the way it was casually slipped into a broader comment about something else. But…

Sue

Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:06:13 +1200

maybe more guys comment on PA because there are more guys writing for PA. Plus the women who blog on PA write infrequently.
Does in PAs case two plus two equall a gender imbalance?

Tze Ming Mok

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 22:54:36 +1200

If I might venture an answer to the question posed in the title of this one, no I'm not going to free you

Good lord, not another one too young to remember Goo. Creak. Creak. Somebody bring me my cane.

Steven: you are obviously rather upset, and so perhaps have…

reece palmer

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:58:52 +1200

I also remember an egg flying out of the lower common rooms at a great rate of knots towards the bespoke suited Mr Banks.
Legend arm that.

reece palmer

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:56:05 +1200

I particularly remember one peice written about wannabe gangsters in freemans bay, rippingly funny retort that was. If I might venture an answer to the question posed in the title of this one, no I'm not going to free you, because freedom in whatever form it takes or is realised…

simon g

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:43:40 +1200

I'm happy to be labelled a white boy – one's a fact, the other gives me back a couple of decades I thought I'd lost.

But seriously, I see no reason to be offended by Tze Ming's piece. And any throwaway jibes are absolutely nothing – nothing at all …

3410

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 21:00:03 +1200

Slightly off-topic I realise, but said magazine really has turned to custard since Pamela Stirling took over, hasn't it?
[...]
Why don't they just change their name to Self-Help Weekly and be done with it?.

I know what you mean

simon g

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:44:03 +1200

Helen Clark (hooray), in her Friday interview with Jim Mora (boo) on Radio NZ National (hooray, boo), said that she reads Public Address. So there's at least one female lurker you can reach by posting here.

And I suspect there are a lot of men like me that read Tze…

Emma Hart

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:21:07 +1200

so... what we have here is a site with usual, liberal, left-leaning guys chatting. and i'd like to think that women are more than welcome to chime in, exactly the same as they would be if we were out socially.

Heh, System reminds me of hanging out in the Lower…

Che Tibby

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:02:59 +1200

i comment on NRT, span and this. mostly this, and rarely about politics. i'd like to talk about say, unions with span, but simply cannot. (work)

oh, and i can vouch for deborah! loved that buzz bar by the way. "theatre" needs to be yelled in more work meetings...

i…

Robyn Gallagher

Sat, 28 Apr 2007 19:46:57 +1200

Fear of a female interwebs

This will be my 276th comment posted on PA System. I don't know for sure, but I suspect most of the comments I've made have been more on social rather than political topics (though sometimes there are overlaps).

Politics and sports are two things that…